Lathes

[devlin]

I've often seen a lot of the guys on here drool over the older lathes liek the Southports etc. I know from my brief stint as a mchinist many, many years ago that these units were solid and built to last forever (with the appropiate maintenance of course). Unfortunately here in Australia we don't have the supply or the cheaper prices that those in the US enjoy but there are a couple floating around. Are they worth getting? Is the tooling now available going to fit, in general? Are they more a enthusiasts choice or are they a viable working option. I can spend a couple thousand and get a new or near new 38mm bore unit from the local machinery mobs and most of these older units are similar prices when they pop up. New or old?

[Tristan]

Most older stuff will be imperial, even in Australia. Worth keeping in mind....my Myford is imperial and it drives me nuts.

[bencooper]

My logic is that old stuff that's lasted this long is probably pretty tough. Tooling is generally not a problem, if there are any problems they're easily solvable. But I tend to hunt about for bargains too, so don't pay anywhere near new costs.

[Mike Mcdermid]

My logic is different to bens my absolute favourite machine is rock solid in construction but worn out, spares are none existent and for 1/4 of what it costs to buy a new Asia import I might be able if I'm lucky to get spares and I'm in a country full of old iron, with very few people who still retain the skills to scrape a machine in as its refurbed if at all

Machine tools in industry are commodities these days even 50k CNCs you run em till their worn out, when they do you buy a new one you probably aren't going to wear it out ,it will run straight from the box, horror stories from the old guard saying Asia machines suck were true 10 years ago, these days its easier to get a good un than buy a machine that's worn out and knackered you get what you pay for, dropping 1k on a hardinge....well your not going to be getting a 10k hardinge nor will you need a machine to hold microns all day

[devlin]

A search around today showed most of the old machines that were of reasonable condition are asking top dollar. I saw a Myford for $6k and a1940's Hercus for $1500 that would take a lot of work to be usable.

I think I'll just look for 2nd hand modern machines. Unfortunately a large workshop just before xmas did a purge of some Hafco machines that would have fit the bill and they were less than $1k. I didn't have any money at the time to splurge. Still don't actually. i'll have to save then go looking I think.

Cheers

[Rayburn Shaun]

Agree with Mike McDermid here.

[11.4]

We went through a lot of lathes in a company I ran recently, and we managed it this way:

First, there are lathes that are easily interfaceable to CNC and those that aren't. I haven't seen many frame builders using a computer interface ... but correct me if I'm wrong. We were always able to find quite a number of lathes in very good shape that we used for applications where CNC wasn't needed -- and they were mostly fairly recent manufacture. The market value of those has dropped a lot (even kids buying lathes out of shop classes are looking for CNC) and what once was a $10K Hardinge in good shape is now likely to be a $3000 precision Hardinge in good shape. The $1000 worn out machines are just material for the junkyard or for hobbyists. And sadly, practically all the old names fall into that category -- Southports, Myfords, South Bends, and so on. You have to nurse them along, parts are hard to find, and they just aren't made with the tolerances and ease of use that you can find with newer units.

Second, there's the imperial versus metric problem as Tristan pointed out above. But that depends on the fixtures you want to run. We actually converted our imperial lathes to metric without too much effort -- there isn't all that much that has to change, and things like tool holders tend to be universal anyway. You might see a lot of imperial chucks and such sitting around, but most of them are trashed out. Chucks generally seem to have bifurcated in pricing -- there are the cheap ones from Northern and then there are the expensive precision ones -- with nothing worthwhile in between. If you've actually spent the money to get up and running on a lathe, you know that it's the extras that cost most of the money. But because of current pricing, high end used chucks in good condition don't come on the market that much, and don't drop much in price. Cheap chucks just don't last that long in industrial applications, which is where most of the used chucks come from, so you don't get much used for your money. At least that was what we kept finding.

The industrial world is pretty meh about plastics these days and metal is the big thing -- just look at Apple products as one indicator. So milling and turning equipment is in high demand, and what is starting to happen is that lathes are getting to be like TIG welders -- different sizes at different prices, and much more affordable. It's about time because a smaller (35-45 mm bore) capacity lathe doesn't have to be a junky lathe. These will all be CNC, but the industrial shows are demo'ing a lot of new products that are cutting the prices of mills and lathes in half, with smaller footprints, no three phase or even 240 volt, but designed for relatively light industrial loads with both precision and durability. The key here is the light industrial loads. And I'd guess that this is a good formula for any frame builder. The same thing is starting to happen with chucks and other tooling. These aren't $1000 lathes and $200 four-jaw 6-inch chucks, but they are not crazy prices either. Give it another year or two and the market should be quite different. It doesn't affect the big industrial stuff, but for people who are turning smaller bits all day, it's a great improvement. These new ones are mostly Asian but are high quality Asian (same stuff they're putting into factories making iPhones and MacBooks) but there are some very good European ones coming out too. Of the ones I've seen, they are pretty comparable. There's still junk coming out of Asia but there's also a lot of good equipment as well. In Australia I'd suggest you find an industrial trade show just to see what's really available (classifieds don't begin to show you what you can get).

Bottom line, if you're buying a lathe, there are a lot of options and high quality, durable, medium-load products are popping into the market to meet a much more price-sensitive need. There's still a gap in pricing between cheap junk and high quality used, so a framebuilder's ideal lathe may not be the easiest thing to find. However, you may be happier with a slightly newer or a new unit rather than an old classic. An old Southport is consonant with the tradition of hand-built, hand-measured, and bespoke, but if you are trying to make a living at it and do the best possible work, it takes more experience and skill than I suspect most framebuilders start with, and the time to develop skills might be devoted better elsewhere.

[Rayburn Shaun]

These new ones are mostly Asian but are high quality Asian (same stuff they're putting into factories making iPhones and MacBooks) ............Bottom line, if you're buying a lathe, there are a lot of options and high quality, durable, medium-load products are popping into the market to meet a much more price-sensitive need. ..... However, you may be happier with a slightly newer or a new unit rather than an old classic.

I edited the above post (which is spot-on BTW) to highlight a few points. I manage a machine shop and see the same things. I realize that Devlin is not in the USA, but with the dollar being strong right now, it is spurring production in Asia as US companies purchase low cost, high quality equipment. the increase in Asian production will find it's way into other markets (such as Australia!) while older US brands will be 1)hard to find, (2 hard to find in good shape, 3) difficult and expensive to tool up, etc etc etc.

Asia is doing apx. 20 billion dollars worth of machine tools per year now, if I remember correctly....

Many reasons to look at something a bit more modern.

[EricKeller]

I almost got a deal on a 9" south bend and I'm glad I didn't. POS, even in its day. The heavy 10 was a nice lathe, but it's really nice to be able to pass a tube through the head, and it takes a 13" lathe to do that, usually. I have a crapped out Sheldon R13 lathe and I've gotten some decent parts out of it. For what I paid for it, I might have been better off with a Chinese lathe. They aren't all the same, some companies do better prep. Others are pretty horrible.

[EnginCycles]

Both the heavy ten and the 13" are a 1.375" bore. You should never leave a tube out the head stock unsupported. It is a great way to mess things up in a hurry. People seem so fixated on the spindle bore. You should focus on if the machine is any good, tight, has an easy changing spindle design (D1 or L series type) and that you can afford to tool it up. You need a new set true 3 and 6 jaw (any chuck it came with is a paper weight usually), 4 jaw and hopefully a collet style like either a Hardinge or a Jacobs. The lathe is just the beginning of the purchase. The tools is where you will spend the real money. My Ultra-Dex boring bar for boring head tubes was a $1000 purchase (before inserts). I have to say my Monarch is one hell of a machine and I won't be getting rid of it any time soon. I also have a Colchester Chipmaster (mine is a rebranded version by Harrison called the 10AA) and it is a great little machine. It is a Metric and Imperial machine which is cool since it can make metric threads.

Go here and just read to your hearts content. Machine Tool Archive

[Mike Mcdermid]

Both the heavy ten and the 13" are a 1.375" bore. You should never leave a tube out the head stock unsupported. It is a great way to mess things up in a hurry. People seem so fixated on the spindle bore. You should focus on if the machine is any good, tight, has an easy changing spindle design (D1 or L series type) and that you can afford to tool it up. You need a new set true 3 and 6 jaw (any chuck it came with is a paper weight usually), 4 jaw and hopefully a collet style like either a Hardinge or a Jacobs. The lathe is just the beginning of the purchase. The tools is where you will spend the real money. My Ultra-Dex boring bar for boring head tubes was a $1000 purchase (before inserts). I have to say my Monarch is one hell of a machine and I won't be getting rid of it any time soon. I also have a Colchester Chipmaster (mine is a rebranded version by Harrison called the 10AA) and it is a great little machine. It is a Metric and Imperial machine which is cool since it can make metric threads.

Go here and just read to your hearts content. Machine Tool Archive

I have a chippie Its imperial, personally i think its one of those all things to all men machines ,but there comes a point at the precision end of the spectrum its outclassed by the CVAs Smart and browns and Hardinges of the world,I'm more surprised people struggle with the whom metric imperial thing.mine cuts metric threads because you can get gear wheels to add up to 127

The best chuck we have is Japanese made a new 700 Pratt look like it was shit and to be honest it was

[bencooper]

I guess this is one of the things where you have to ask yourself what you need it to do and what you're willing to spend for that ability. For example one lathe I use quite often is a 1942 Rollo Elf. It's a lovely little Scottish-made thing, and I use it all the time for cutting fork crown races, making custom axles, things like that. Nothing big, nothing requiring incredible precision, but I got it for £250 and it happily sits in the corner doing what I want it to do. The other lathe which gets the most use is actually a modern one - a tiny Sherline which is perfect for all the little bike parts I need to make or modify. The third lathe I have is an old Myford turret lathe - I don't use it much but when I do it's invaluable.

All three of those lathes together cost a lot less than even a good condition ML7, and I can keep them set up for different jobs which I couldn't do with only one lathe.

[devlin]

Cheers guys. So much great insight there. My first job out of school, 1990, I worked in a machine shop making parts for detectors for electron microscopes. Steep learning curve but I learned and taught myself so much in that year. We used a brand called Hafco. Cant remember the model but it had a 2" bore from memiry. Used it along side a big vertical mill and we nade some really cool stuff. Wish I had taken photos and to have that resource now would be incredible. Especially if you put CNC into the mix. I would use a lathe for so much it would be a worthy purchase. Thanks.

[NBC]

see if you can find any dean smith & grace 13" lathes, doesn't really matter if it's long or short bed, they're both ace, weigh a ridiculous amount, but are practically unkillable, and not so expensive either !

just a thought

NBC