Terms and Conditions

[Gallus]

Just wondering what kind of conditions, if any, that y'all lay out for potential and/or current customers in regards to the process of building them a bike. Do you have a contract or written agreement that they must sign? Or do you simply list all possible costs, projected timelines and other possible terms on your website? Do you have "change of order", redesign or refitting fees? Are the customers aware of those possible fees before they order?

I want to keep the process of ordering a hand made bike simple and enjoyable for the customer, and laying out a stack of terms seems to detract from that, but at the same time I find it necessary to protect my interests because if they are undermined then the business (me) suffers. I would like to think my pricing structure and ordering process is relatively clear on my website, but people seem to find yet newer ways to amaze me.

[e-RICHIE]

. I would like to think my pricing structure <cut>.

Unless all of your vendors, overhead suppliers, and agents hold their prices firm to you (energy costs, derailleurs, tubes sets, insurance, the price of a meal (particularly the Catch Of The Day) at your favorite seafood restaurant, I'd suggest you keep yours a moving target as well.

[David Tollefson]

I'm really early in the whole building process, but here's what I envision it to be:

I state on my site the price of a type of frame using "typical" dropouts and braze-ons, with the caveat that specific desires (tubing, braze-ons, etc) will affect the price. As part of the design process, all that gets rolled together, and once it's agreed to, that's the contract and half is due before fabrication begins. I don't have a specified lead-time, as this is a part-time gig and things happen, but I'll keep the customers in the loop on progress and have the queue fully published and progress on each frame designated on the list.

Feel free to tear that apart, it's just my thoughts and are subject to the whims of the market (read: getting my ass handed to me).

[Bewheels]

Not in the frame biz, but have run other businesses so hopefully that qualifies me to answer ...

In addition to thinking from an inside-out perspective (how does this affect me), also strongly consider approaching this from the outside-in (what is your customer experiencing). From a customer perspective..."what can I expect to happen" and "does the person/business's reputation support that expectation" are key. This applies to to pricing and delivery.

If the pricing is not clear it will feel like I was taken advantage of or there was a game of bait-and-switch...my product is $200 unless you want to be able to attach wheels which makes it $2000.
I should be able to quickly understand the price of what I want from you from your site. Purely from an end customer perspective, really simple pricing structures are helpful. And as long as you do not have multi year waiting lists, you should be able to stick to published prices. But, be careful how/where you publish prices so that you can easily change them.

A far as delivery times, publishing a window based time frame is fine. It is delivering on the time frame that is important.

[Gallus]

In addition to thinking from an inside-out perspective (how does this affect me), also strongly consider approaching this from the outside-in (what is your customer experiencing). From a customer perspective..."what can I expect to happen" and "does the person/business's reputation support that expectation" are key. This applies to to pricing and delivery.

Hi Brian, thanks for your insight. I agree with most of what you said. My ultimate goal is to make the customer happy and feel like they had a good experience.

This post was not so much about pricing as it is about customers changing the order between the time of their deposit and the start of the project. My queue hovers around 6 months to a year. Typically when the customer puts down the deposit it is after some discussion of what kind of bike they want. This usually starts innocently enough and they want a straightforward bike. If they are local and I have them in my shop at this time then we do the fitting. On quite a few occasions now, when I have contacted the customers to inform them that I was about to start building their bike, they inform me that they now want a totally different bike then the one they ordered, or want all sorts of unnecessary accoutrements stuck on the frame. A lot of times this involves refitting and redesigning the bike. Worst case scenario they have attached themselves to a concept or style that is very far from what I want to do. If they had informed me that these were the things they wanted initially I would have told them that it wasn't what I do, explained what I can do, and recommend someone else if necessary. But by the time this has happened, they are anxious to get their bike, probably mad at me for running behind schedule, very much attached to their ideas, and it makes it difficult to reason with them.

For the most part, I enjoy the dialogue I have with my customers, I want to know all about them, and that helps me make informed decisions and a sound design. Maybe I will even learn something new during the process. I want to make the right bike for the customer, but to do so I need to be in control of the build and of my business. I am trying to figure out a way to more consistently insure that happens, without coming across as a dictator or take away the fun of ordering a hand made bike.

[e-RICHIE]

This post was not so much about pricing as it is about customers changing the order between the time of their deposit and the start of the project.

I would add this: the order is a place holder. Once you have a handshake, fiscal or otherwise, the order is a name on a line in a book and stays there until the very week or day you will make it. Having front end, mid-term, or any other chats about the specs before you cut metal is counterproductive. Once the commitment is made, go back to the client you are making a frame for now. Otherwise, you're designing, selling, and or reselling a frame multiple times. The courting period is a bit different, but once the order arrives, leave it be until it's go-baby time.

[Gallus]

Unless all of your vendors, overhead suppliers, and agents hold their prices firm to you (energy costs, derailleurs, tubes sets, insurance, the price of a meal (particularly the Catch Of The Day) at your favorite seafood restaurant, I'd suggest you keep yours a moving target as well.

Though my wait time is minimal compared to yours, I can see how fluctuating costs can affect the "bottom line". I understand that your queue is now closed, but when you were taking new orders did you simply give inquiring customers an estimate based on the last completed bike(s)?

[e-RICHIE]

Though my wait time is minimal compared to yours, I can see how fluctuating costs can affect the "bottom line". I understand that your queue is now closed, but when you were taking new orders did you simply give inquiring customers an estimate based on the last completed bike(s)?

My advice is given regardless of the wait time atmo. The prices here haven't been locked in for a very, very long time. Maybe since the late 1990s.

[andrew flowers]

I agree wholeheartedly. I have never paid more than 10% for a deposit, and have always assumed it was simply a placeholder. Also, with mr Kirk the price was never nailed down, as the cost, depending on what I wanted from the bike was pretty variable.

[e-RICHIE]

One point I wanna add is this: even when someone wants to prepay (for whatever reason - but in this case to possibly lock in a price...) the only way that could work is if you make the bicycle that day. My experience through the decades is that a client wants what you're making now, and not what you did six weeks or six months ago. That's assuming your work evolves. And if it doesn't, or hasn't, it's another thread. No matter how much time passes, time and skill sets march on.