CX fitness - apparently it's not the same thing

[hmai18]

It always feels like this point in the seasons creeps up on me too soon.

[s_curran]

Can anyone talk to me about V02 max intervals? I hadnt done them before, but have been once a week for the past 3 weeks. I read an article by Myerson that said they should be the bread and butter for cross racers, so I was surprised I hadnt read about them before. They make sense to me, go over threshold for 2 min and then try to hang on for 3 more. I have trouble hitting my Max HR on them though. Maybe my max HR for a 5 min sustained effort though, I guess that means I just need to push harder. I've been doing them on a practice cross course I put together that focuses on longer power rather than skill and short sprints. I'm going on HR and feel here, but I think I'm getting the idea.

[roseyscot]

If you want to focus solely on the max heart rate VO2 component, do these on the road or on the trainer/rollers. It's awfully hard to do VO2 max while also dealing with cx course conditions, even though that's what you'll be doing each weekend come September.

[hmai18]

Do you have a 5-minute hill nearby? I'm lucky enough to have a section of gravel trail in a nearby park that starts as a false flat and then rises up to a mild gradient that's perfect for this kind of workout.

[s_curran]

If you want to focus solely on the max heart rate VO2 component, do these on the road or on the trainer/rollers. It's awfully hard to do VO2 max while also dealing with cx course conditions, even though that's what you'll be doing each weekend come September.

Yeah, I switched to laps around a soccer field in the middle, I was able to put down a bit more power. I'll try switching to the access road next to route 2 in arlington, looks like that will be 5 min.

[holliscx]

It took awhile but I finally found a permanent cyclocross course nearby. The tape is down in some parts but the area is perfect with lots of turns plus 4-5 good long straight single track trails in various directions that allow a lot of variation; also a series of probably 20 steps that run up to an asphalt road. The course is located in Cerdanyola which is a 5km climb plus 5km descent via road from Barcelona probably 30km total ride with 2 5km climbs (out and back) from my house to the course but I'm happy with that as I can take the climbs easy. If I go off-road that will add climbing plus distance but anyway I'm writing because I found a perfect course to train but now what the hell do I do? I want to suffer and go crazy in the best attempt I can to train in a manner that will pay dividends come the weekend.

My weakness is definitely the start. I struggle to go into the red the first lap whereas recently we had a race where the first lap happened to be about 85% I think because of the turns and bottlenecking but this is vs 110% normal first lap intensity and the 85% first lap I crushed the race because the start was somewhat conservative and I felt comfortable. My next weakness is overbraking in turns - I need to work on entering the turn wide, cut the apex, and exit wide - too often I'm on the inside of the turn and it's slow af. Then just overall intensity when someone passes I struggle to stay on their wheel and fight. Not good at bunny hops or most really technical stuff - it's faster for me to run so I usually do on race day for I would need to practice to have the confidence to clear something about 9 times without crashing and there isn't much time to practice on pre-ride with lots of racing. Flats pure speed is probably my strength. So if there's a straightaway I try to take advantage. I also think I'm above average through dismount and runs so I try to run through barriers and remount as fast as I can as I notice this is where I can open up gaps. (I lose time in turns; technical sections)

Any workout suggestions for a practice course?

[s_curran]

It took awhile but I finally found a permanent cyclocross course nearby. The tape is down in some parts but the area is perfect with lots of turns plus 4-5 good long straight single track trails in various directions that allow a lot of variation; also a series of probably 20 steps that run up to an asphalt road. The course is located in Cerdanyola which is a 5km climb plus 5km descent via road from Barcelona probably 30km total ride with 2 5km climbs (out and back) from my house to the course but I'm happy with that as I can take the climbs easy. If I go off-road that will add climbing plus distance but anyway I'm writing because I found a perfect course to train but now what the hell do I do? I want to suffer and go crazy in the best attempt I can to train in a manner that will pay dividends come the weekend.

My weakness is definitely the start. I struggle to go into the red the first lap whereas recently we had a race where the first lap happened to be about 85% I think because of the turns and bottlenecking but this is vs 110% normal first lap intensity and the 85% first lap I crushed the race because the start was somewhat conservative and I felt comfortable. My next weakness is overbraking in turns - I need to work on entering the turn wide, cut the apex, and exit wide - too often I'm on the inside of the turn and it's slow af. Then just overall intensity when someone passes I struggle to stay on their wheel and fight. Not good at bunny hops or most really technical stuff - it's faster for me to run so I usually do on race day for I would need to practice to have the confidence to clear something about 9 times without crashing and there isn't much time to practice on pre-ride with lots of racing. Flats pure speed is probably my strength. So if there's a straightaway I try to take advantage. I also think I'm above average through dismount and runs so I try to run through barriers and remount as fast as I can as I notice this is where I can open up gaps. (I lose time in turns; technical sections)

Any workout suggestions for a practice course?

I have always done 2x20min races on Wednesdays and find those to really do me well. If i'm in the middle of a tough week, I will break them down and do a mix of 2-5min efforts. First lap issues could be warmup, but if your coming from the back, you will most likely be sprinting really hard, then coasting for a bit, just like the rest of the race, but more exaggerated. I do a routine where I do 15 seconds on, 15 seconds off, but never dipping that far low below threshold, for about 3 minutes (2-4 sets). You can also replicate this by just doing your practice lap, and sprint hard out of every corner, but avoiding long sections of power. I build a practice course to my weaknesses, so I built my earlier course to be power based, with longer draining sections. It helped a lot, and is no longer my weakness, so now I do courses with a lot of short sprints out of corners, which is better for mid season anyways.

Now if your near the front, and having trouble hanging on to the group, thats more like a 5-10min effort, so I would focus on that, but if its mid season, you'll want to take it easy on those.

You can save a lot of energy on good cornering though. Focus on weighting your front wheel, especially on the inside side of your handlebars, you should almost be pushing down. Build some corners, and just ride them over and over, a bunch of different radius'. trying and imagine it being one motion, once you set your line for the corner, limit mid corner adjustments. Always brake before the turn, not in them. So test different entry speeds. I always think about is a two part process, the first part being setting up square and braking, the second being the actual corner. I dont know if this works for other people, but when I'm really on it, I sort of imagine myself hitting the stakes with my elbow or shoulder like a ski racer, but if the bike is upright, thats going to do you no good. The lean, with limited steering input is the more important part of it, thats when your tires really bite.

[holliscx]

<snip>You can also replicate this by just doing your practice lap, and sprint hard out of every corner, <snip>

Like this a lot probably doing it tomorrow.

This past weekend I went to the Basque Country for two races and the second race on Sunday was like a bad dream because someone overtook me sprinting into every turn this happened 10-15 times and was a great strategy for the course as the turns were pretty closed so I had to brake every time. I didn't make a good mid-race adjustment but thought about it on the drive home. I think it was home course advantage where this probably happened to those guys before so I got dealt a hand of rookie luck.

Good point about warmup. I go to local races by public trans so don't take rollers (which I don't own) or even a spare wheel. I could probably stand to do more by focusing on my warmup a little bit more. I do try to do a few accelerations to give my heart a little bit of shock to let it know what's coming but I wouldn't say my warmup is that great and definitely not intense so you may be onto something I've never thought of. Still though the first lap is a struggle because I race with guys a lot younger so the whole field is strong and I feel it. Also has to do with taking a train to the races I can't get to most of the races for a 9am start with the masters 40 group so I race elite instead around 1pm. I prefer this start time but the group is elite, U23, and masters 30 so I'm fighting for my life first lap. (In Spanish Cup races I race masters 40 just not the local weekend races I forgot to mention I'm 41)

[Bewheels]

A work out from back in the day as an elite MTB racer...

1 minute on with 3 min off.
Find a slight hill (3% - 5%).
Roll slowly to the start of the effort.
Go as hard as you can for 1 min.
You will not be able to maintain speed/power for the full 1 min. If you can then you are not going hard enough. You should peak at about 30-45 second. Then you are just keeping the effort as high as you can for the remainder of the minute.
Pedal easy for 3 minute to let your heart rate go back down.
Repeat.

We would build the volume of these over several weeks. For the high level elite people we would get up to 21 of these in one session. It is not recommended you try to get anywhere near this volume this time of year (or maybe ever).

These greatly benefited start efforts and other MTB efforts (punchy climbs, passing, etc). If nothing else, they mentally prepare you for those types of repeated efforts and teach you that you can recover from those efforts and do it again...and again...and again.


We would do a variation of these specifics to starts.
Find terrain that is representative of a start. Slightly open, dirt preferred, perhaps an incline, some type of corner at the end of the stretch.
Start with a foot on the ground. In your mind visualize all the things that a race start has - nervous people, loudspeakers, etc. Put pressure on yourself that this one is important.
Do your own count down. Go.
Clip in and do the same effort listed above.
Go through the corner with speed and go super hard again. This should all take 1 minute.
Stop the effort and spin for 3 minute.
Repeat.

The main things is to not try to go at a pace that you can maintain for 1 minute. You should peak 30-45 seconds into the effort and then keep the intensity up even though the speed will drop.

These are very hard. They kinda' suck. But they were very useful for those of use that were not the best off the line or on punchy climbs...or sprinting from corner to corner.

[BSUdude]

You can save a lot of energy on good cornering though. Focus on weighting your front wheel, especially on the inside side of your handlebars, you should almost be pushing down. Build some corners, and just ride them over and over, a bunch of different radius'. trying and imagine it being one motion, once you set your line for the corner, limit mid corner adjustments. Always brake before the turn, not in them. So test different entry speeds. I always think about is a two part process, the first part being setting up square and braking, the second being the actual corner. I dont know if this works for other people, but when I'm really on it, I sort of imagine myself hitting the stakes with my elbow or shoulder like a ski racer, but if the bike is upright, thats going to do you no good. The lean, with limited steering input is the more important part of it, thats when your tires really bite.

This is great advice, especially clipping the course stakes. I find if you are doing what you're supposed to do and looking around the corner, clipping the stakes almost comes naturally. If you are looking at the corner you're going to be slow. Look around the corner to the exit or the next corner and you'll naturally set up the right line. This is a great skill to practice. Practicing corners in series is much more beneficial than standalone. Practice them off camber, awkward approaches, wet, dry, mess with tread/tire pressure, every which way.

Also your warmup routine should include getting on the course if possible in any way, shape, or form. If you only have 1 opportunity to get on the course, take it slow to read the course. If you can get on more than once, take it slow the first time, then do it about 80-90% effort the 2nd time. For me not only is this an adequate warmup (I only do 1 or 2 1-min or 30s almost all out efforts after that), but you are also testing the course at speed. If you are riding at 80-90%, you'll figure out where you can recover and where you'll be burying yourself. You'll figure out where the tricky corners are. You'll get the flow of where you can be crosseyed and where you need to be able to concentrate and nail technical features.

Where are you during the start and during the race? top 10? middle of pack? How much traffic are you usually in? How many people in your race? Some of the items you are listing are tactical, but logical tactics have to take into account a lot of things we don't know yet.

I don't know what the season is like in Spain, but if you're deficient power-wise in early November here, you're realistically not going to train yourself into shape by the end of the season...unless you've only been doing like 3 or 4 hours a week up to this point. So an adjustment to tactics and practicing skills are realistically how you'd make an impact on your performance at this point in the season for most amateurs in the USA that are done in 4-6 weeks.

[s_curran]

This is great advice, especially clipping the course stakes. I find if you are doing what you're supposed to do and looking around the corner, clipping the stakes almost comes naturally. If you are looking at the corner you're going to be slow. Look around the corner to the exit or the next corner and you'll naturally set up the right line. This is a great skill to practice. Practicing corners in series is much more beneficial than standalone. Practice them off camber, awkward approaches, wet, dry, mess with tread/tire pressure, every which way.

Yes! that is a better way to put it.

Also, I do a silly warmup thing and have always done it on every bike, whether it be DH MTB, XC MTB, or CX. I'm sure it looks goofy, but it works for me, also helped teach my girlfriend the motion of quick sprints out of corners on the MTB. I start slow (standing), do a hard corner to the right, hard half pedal stroke out, then a hard left corner Half pedal stroke out, and do that for ten turns or something. I like it best on grass, it will keep you at a steady speed, it also reminds me of how my tires bite, but also activates those quick power muscles. Lastly it makes sure your tires arent going to fall off in the race.

I follow what Myerson says about warmup, that you want to activate every form of activity that you will do in a race. So sometimes I even do a few minutes at threshold (based on HR), after I'm a bit warm already.

[BSUdude]

I follow what Myerson says about warmup, that you want to activate every form of activity that you will do in a race. So sometimes I even do a few minutes at threshold (based on HR), after I'm a bit warm already.

Yea, after doing some reading saying ^that^ and basically don't over-warmup, I adjusted my warmup routine for CX this season. Previously I had been doing set intervals at certain intensities, working up to a very hard (PE 8+) minute. The only way I could control the times I was hitting and steady tempos was to do it on a road or trainer. The warmup worked, but I didn't like that I had to either get on a trainer or ride on the road. Now I figure that if I do a lap-ish (usually 7-10 minutes) at 80-90% effort that I will be activating all those power levels except for the highest. I don't go lactic on the warmup lap. After the warmup lap I go to a road or something nearby and bust out a hard 45s-1 minute, hard enough that I get the burn in my legs. Then just roll around a bit and ready to race. I'd only do an 80-90% lap if I've already done an easy preview lap, so I don't get in over my head having never ridden the course before.

I've found this approach warms me up well, allows me more time on the course, and gets me riding the course closer to race pace so you get a better feel for the features and the effort levels on certain parts. Looking at my HR file from the warmup laps this season, it is pretty good for hitting all the sub LT zones. And you can self adjust if the course is hard or easy, so you get the desired effect. Sometimes there can be issues if there is so much traffic on course that you can't continually keep up a good pace, but I haven't found that a problem for me most of the time. Or if it is super sloppy I wouldn't spend a bunch of time on course and have to do a bunch of cleaning of my bike right before the race.

Of course warmups can be pretty individual, but I just thought I'd share what I feel had been a very positive improvement to my CX race routine.

[s_curran]

Ok, so I'm feeling pretty good now after a few hard weeks of training. My sprints are much better than last year and I can do way more. Last night I decided to try tabata. I either found a super weak spot, or a stupid workout. Anyone know anything about it?

I was doing 20s on (goal of about 200% FTP) 10s off (maybe 50%) x7. I tried to do 3 sets of these. I never really made it to seven on each though. My last one of 7 was almost always down to about 130% of FTP, and I probably started at %220. Maybe I was going too hard? Or maybe I havent trained my body to recover quick enough?

The odd thing was, after 15 minutes of finishing and reconsidering all my training and life choices I did a normal sprint workout, and felt great. My normal sprint workout is 10-15 seconds at full power ~240% FTP, with 2.5 min rest, sets of 3. I did a full 3 sets feeling good ( on a normal day I may do 6-9 sets), and then also did two 1 min intervals and also felt good.

Should I keep doing tabata? or is my normal CX 2x20's enough. Any other ways to train your body to recover quickly? Maybe try 15 seconds between sprints?

tabata.jpg

[KonaSS]

Tabata - do it again! Think about it this way, if you nailed the workout on your first try, what would you do next week to increase the stress?

Next week focus on finishing strong on reps 5-7. They work. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

[BSUdude]

I'm not a tabata guru, but I believe the dropoff in power as you progress through the workout is by design for tabatas. Tabata or not, that workout would cause a dropoff in power during the course of the workout given the intensities and interval lengths described.

Basically, I'd say your experience sounds about right for the workout described, especially since it was the first attempt.

A couple questions. Did the workout call for 50% FTP between the surges? To better be able to complete the workout next time, you might try knocking that down to basically recovery spin between surges. Then as you get better at completing the workout you can dial up your intensity in between.

Also, looks like you did 8 from your chart?

[hmai18]

I'm pretty sure tabata protocol is meant to be 20s full-gas with 10s rest in between, repeated 8x for 4min per set. I can barely make it through one set just spinning my legs between the surges.

[s_curran]

Yeah, I did it on a hill, my normal 5 min hill, the 50% was more of enough speed not to stop, next time I may just try it on a flat area. I dont know why I did 8, I think I misheard my garmin.

Im thinking I may have sort of accidentally combined a more typical over/under workout with tabata, assuming they are different, I've never really done over unders either though.

on a more positive note, in the last 12 hours I have set both 20 minute and 5 minute bests, ever.