A Completely New Frame

[dinucci]

Where shall I begin?

First I would like to thank Richard Sachs for his continued encouragement to have me post here. The V'Salon has, over the years, grown to be interesting and informative.

I have created an entirely new, synergistic steel frame. This is not just another retro road bike. I have designed every tube, lug, and braze on through a process that has completely re-imagined what a steel bike might be based of my last 40 years of design work. It’s a bike that carries all the inherent ride qualities of modern steel coupled with the type of modern technological advances that push it into a new category. From the alloys and design of the lugs, BB shell, fork crown, dropouts, bridges, and braze-on bits integrating with the tube material, tube wall thickness and braze alloy used, to the shape and design of the tubes, every detail has been optimized to function with the design's conceptual intention. This process began nearly three years ago and has consumed more than a few hours of work.

I believe this is an important landmark in the development of the bicycle frame in that it may be the last chance for a complete re-thinking of the ferrous based frame. With carbon now dominating the performance market, what company is going to invest what it takes to do all this work in one shot and how many companies still have a capable designer on staff who is experienced in steel? Developing this was an eye opener in that regard. So few folks are left who really get this work and we had to push both tube and lug makers hard to get this done.

I would say that the design is fairly conservative in that I have changed some parameters, to increase increase stiffness for example, without adding weight (decreasing weight where available) or sacrificing durability, instead of trying for an all-out effort to eliminate weight. Test results have shown an extremely durable structure.

I will attempt, as a first time posting, some photos that should show some of the more visibly interesting details.

Specialized will use this design to celebrate their 40th anniversary. They state "It’s the culmination of 40 years of bike building filtered down into the very best steel bike we’ve ever made. In a special nod to where it all began, the 40th Anniversary Allez frame is being built in the very factory that was responsible for the first Specialized Stumpjumper".

As I will again attend the Bicycle Art Meets Form/ USAC Men’s and Women’s National Professional Criterium Championships please do not expect a prompt response from me.
dubdubdub.bicycle-artform.org/

Thanks
Mark DiNucci

[zetroc]

Mr. Dinucci,

Thank you for posting. Your work is gorgeous.

Steve

[Mark Kelly]

So what's the alloy for the lugs? I assume they were investment castings.

[devlin]

its a great looking lugset. While I'm a rank beginner at frame building, Ive always thought steel was capable of more than what had been presented so far. That's not to say what is/was all ready available isn't sub par, far from it, but seeing stuff from Rob English and similar and now Mark's work, confirms the thoughts I had on some things I wanted to try when I eventually get past the initial learning stage. Some just purely for aesthetics but also there are structural changes, for example the CS that Mark has designed. Will be exciting to see how Mark progresses this line of design.

Thanks to Mark for sharing his work with us.

[joosttx]

I saw your frames at NAHBS I think for two years in a row; last time was I think in Sacarmento. I felt they were the most elegant frames I has ever seen. Beautiful.

[Will Neide]

It’s a bike that carries all the inherent ride qualities of modern steel coupled with the type of modern technological advances that push it into a new category. From the alloys and design of the lugs, BB shell, fork crown, dropouts, bridges, and braze-on bits integrating with the tube material, tube wall thickness and braze alloy used, to the shape and design of the tubes, every detail has been optimized to function with the design's conceptual intention. This process began nearly three years ago and has consumed more than a few hours of work.

I'm assuming since this in the frame forum, we are still allowed to ask questions, critique, learn, etc......

Could you expand on this? On the surface, it seems very "marketing lingo."

[Jake Rosenfeld]

Those dropouts absolutely. fucking. do. it. for. me.

[Chauncey Matthews]

Sorry, pure marketing. It's a high quality, hand made steel frame it isn't nirvana.

Not that Mark needs anyone to defend him....his body of work speaks for itself...but come on, you have no idea what went into this project. Why not save the derision until you have some firsthand knowledge?

[adarn]

it's no derision, he posted pictures or a pretty traditional looking lugged frame and made a bunch of really big claims with zero explanation backing it up.
Not saying it doesn't look nice or anything, but if you aren't questioning that, you ought to be careful what you read on this here internet...

[Todd Mosley]

As I will again attend the Bicycle Art Meets Form/ USAC Men’s and Women’s National Professional Criterium Championships please do not expect a prompt response from me.
dubdubdub.bicycle-artform.org/

Thanks
Mark DiNucci

it's no derision, he posted pictures or a pretty traditional looking lugged frame and made a bunch of really big claims with zero explanation backing it up.
Not saying it doesn't look nice or anything, but if you aren't questioning that, you ought to be careful what you read on this here internet...

He said he'd be unable to respond for the next few days. The events he mentioned will be done tomorrow.

Here is some more info on the frame: The Specialized Allez, Reborn | RKP. It may look traditional from 10 feet, but it looks like a lot of work went into the details. I'm looking forward to learning more. Perhaps next week?

[KPearson]

I believe this is an important landmark in the development of the bicycle frame in that it may be the last chance for a complete re-thinking of the ferrous based frame. With carbon now dominating the performance market, what company is going to invest what it takes to do all this work in one shot and how many companies still have a capable designer on staff who is experienced in steel? Developing this was an eye opener in that regard. So few folks are left who really get this work and we had to push both tube and lug makers hard to get this done.
Mark DiNucci

The Specialized marketing speak is funny but this paragraph seems insulting to the builders on this form

[e-RICHIE]

If you've posted on this thread OR in FrameForum at all - and I catch it - the post will be deleted asap if there is no first and last name attached to the signature OR in your screen name. First, I need a lager and a shower. The thread may look different in a few hours. The posting guideline down here are in clear view. Comply.

[edoz]

I like the dropouts and the brake bridge. The chainstay brace is exceptionally cool. Regardless of the level of marketing speak that comes with this project, It looks like some cool things have been done here.

[Mike Mcdermid]

Who was the guy that used to design steel specialzed tubesets, wasn't he called mark de something?

[KPearson]

The Specialized marketing speak is funny but this paragraph seems insulting to the builders on this form

This is the first time I have ever posted here so I do not know how to go back and edit this post but to comply Ken Pearson is my name.

[Will Neide]

If you've posted on this thread OR in FrameForum at all - and I catch it - the post will be deleted asap if there is no first and last name attached to the signature OR in your screen name. First, I need a lager and a shower. The thread may look different in a few hours. The posting guideline down here are in clear view. Comply.

"If you're a framebuilder and want to talk about your work, promote the brand, or show images, it has to be in your Smoked Out thread or on Friday Night Lights. If you don't have a thread but are interested in starting one, please PM Too Tall or e-RICHIE. Note - VSalon Gallery threads are for fans and clients. Please don't use them for your images. Use the S.O. or F.N.L. threads for these."

From the guidelines.

Maybe Mr. Denucci needs a smoked out thread where he can market his wares?

[duanedr]

I think the intent is that there is some cool stuff coming in framebuilding with new tube sets and lugs. I think Richard did the same thing.

If you buy into the idea that Specialized, through Mark and Bryant were able to go tip to tail and re-examine every aspect of the steel frame, I would agree with the idea that there is a low probability that manufacturers will be willing or able to make the investment to create a new tubeset and lugs in steel in the future like they have done here. Probably not many of the smaller builders (I don't have a number that = 'smaller') would have the ability to design and commission their own tubeset and lugs and then do the testing and tweaking necessary to make them quantitatively 'better' than what's currently available (I don't have a number that = 'better'). Dario and Richard created some new stuff but, they appear to be standard double butted tubes (not quad butted) and socket lugs/DO's. I'm not saying that quad-butted is better than double butted, or socket drop outs are better than slotted. I'm just saying that Mark/Specialized seem to have done some things differently and I'll be interested in hearing about specific measurements (weight, stiffness, etc.) to determine whether this is ground breaking or not. I'm generally a big fan of Mark's so, I'm looking at my G&T glass and considering it still half full.

The cool things I see here are (perhaps from a newbie standpoint; veterans may be less wow'ed):
Rear drop outs - interesting that they don't seem to enclose the whole end of the CS but really just braze onto the outside face and end
Lugs - seem to be very thin; minimalist - results of FEA? they are also more angular looking; more modern looking to my eyes
shaped CS - could provide same/better rigidity while fitting wider tires with the 'D' shape relative to standard oval or R-O-R stays?

Excited to see this develop further.

[spokesniffer]

The Specialized marketing speak is funny but this paragraph seems insulting to the builders on this form

The Specialized marketing speak is funny but this paragraph seems insulting to the builders on this form

Well, Mark just stopped by on his way back from the airport and it will take him another 3+ hours to drive home, so I wouldn't expect comments till tomorrow...he has been at BAMF...BUT..please don't confuse Mark with Specialized. Specialized gave Mark the opportunity to look at one set of lugs and tubes as an integrated system and design exactly what he would want for his own bikes...we are just 'borrowing' them for 74 bikes and then Mark will continue on using these for his own bikes. So Mark is speaking for Mark, not the big scary place. And if you knew Mark he is a pretty self effacing guy and wouldn't purposely insult another builder (unless of course Bruce Gordon started it first!). Sometimes the chosen words don't always reflect the intent of the writer as I am sure all of us have experienced in email from time to time.

I think the simple intent of the piece you quoted was to say that few have the resources or interest in looking at this problem in steel given the current domination of carbon in the market. Further, with the aid of CAD he has been able to look at tube/lug transitions and interfaces and really refine how they behave in a way that can't be done when lugs are designed at one point and tubes at a later point. In this case the behavior of one influenced the design of the other. It was a feedback loop that evolved both tube shapes and castings iteratively. A feedback loop for the obsessive to be sure, but this was the design path. And to speak to the development of the tubes and lugs, which is what I did...it was a bitch. March harder than when we did this back in the 80's and for the simple reason that most of those shops are now closed and the guys that were damn good at this have found other things to do. Once upon a time you could go to Microfusione or Takahashi and their natural output was a beautiful product with fine grain structure, a beautiful radius where you wanted it and thin walls. All of that seems like a fight now and, speaking only for myself, the current generation of casting houses is just not in the same league. Whatever you thought about Tange, those tubes were damn consistent...another element that is not quite what it once was.

If you are truly interested then I would simply ask Mark to lay it out straight. The guy can design, engineer & build and he has a lot of experience seeing how things fail in a commercial setting. He also has a sense of humor so I wouldn't worry too much about poking him, but if you are going to call him out on the numbers be prepared to hold up your end of the argument.

-Bryant Bainbridge

[KPearson]

Well, Mark just stopped by on his way back from the airport and it will take him another 3+ hours to drive home, so I wouldn't expect comments till tomorrow...he has been at BAMF...BUT..please don't confuse Mark with Specialized. Specialized gave Mark the opportunity to look at one set of lugs and tubes as an integrated system and design exactly what he would want for his own bikes...we are just 'borrowing' them for 74 bikes and then Mark will continue on using these for his own bikes. So Mark is speaking for Mark, not the big scary place. And if you knew Mark he is a pretty self effacing guy and wouldn't purposely insult another builder (unless of course Bruce Gordon started it first!). Sometimes the chosen words don't always reflect the intent of the writer as I am sure all of us have experienced in email from time to time.

I think the simple intent of the piece you quoted was to say that few have the resources or interest in looking at this problem in steel given the current domination of carbon in the market. Further, with the aid of CAD he has been able to look at tube/lug transitions and interfaces and really refine how they behave in a way that can't be done when lugs are designed at one point and tubes at a later point. In this case the behavior of one influenced the design of the other. It was a feedback loop that evolved both tube shapes and castings iteratively. A feedback loop for the obsessive to be sure, but this was the design path. And to speak to the development of the tubes and lugs, which is what I did...it was a bitch. March harder than when we did this back in the 80's and for the simple reason that most of those shops are now closed and the guys that were damn good at this have found other things to do. Once upon a time you could go to Microfusione or Takahashi and their natural output was a beautiful product with fine grain structure, a beautiful radius where you wanted it and thin walls. All of that seems like a fight now and, speaking only for myself, the current generation of casting houses is just not in the same league. Whatever you thought about Tange, those tubes were damn consistent...another element that is not quite what it once was.

If you are truly interested then I would simply ask Mark to lay it out straight. The guy can design, engineer & build and he has a lot of experience seeing how things fail in a commercial setting. He also has a sense of humor so I wouldn't worry too much about poking him, but if you are going to call him out on the numbers be prepared to hold up your end of the argument.

-Bryant Bainbridge

I don't know Mr. Dinucci at all other than the stuff on the internet that shows he makes some pretty bikes people seem to like. I certainly wasn't calling him out on any numbers because there weren't any. Just implications that tubing and lug manufactures are no longer trying to develop anything better, they're just making substandard same old stuff. And of all the small handbuilders who work in steel very few of them are capable of "getting it". And only because of Specialized money can any advances be made in steel frame components. I have nothing against Specialized moving into the all of the bicycle niche markets ,and if they have some secrets they want to share lets see them, but save the marketing for somewhere else. But as I explained earlier this was my first post in these forums and maybe I'm off base but I found his wording to insulting.

ken

[devlin]

Hmm..... I must admit that when I read the paragraph I thought marketing but FFS if you can't market yourself on here then you may as well give up. Part of this forums worth is frambuilders being able to talk about their product and why it's worth them building it.

Not anywhere did I see that Mark had devalued what the other frame builders could do. He mearly pointed out that as a collective it was business as usual and it really was only aesthetic cues that made the bikes different to the punters.

I mean why would you buy an Richard Sachs frame over a Zanconato or a DiNucco if you knew nothing about frame building. These guys still have to market themselves so that at least they get on the short list and they are all battling with the mass produced plastic crew in some way. The number of times the slightly younger but fairly experienced rider asking why you don't have a carbon bike is pretty common.

I have no problem with what the guys are trying to do.