A Completely New Frame

[dinucci]

So what's the alloy for the lugs? I assume they were investment castings.

Hey Mark!
I looked at your 'hot box' and thought it looked so cowboy that it looked like something I would do. Nice.
BTW, if you want to PM me regarding your other projects that use the green wire it would be fun for me. I can only dream of a pair of SE GM-70 amps.

I have intentionally been vague about the alloys. Three alloys are used. The regular head and seat lugs are medium carbon mild steel, about 0.2 carbon. As you know the lug is basically another butt. The tube needs to 'see' no stress riser where the lug first intersects it and then progressively gets stronger as it gets to the tube intersection i.e. the head tube / down tube. Then going away from the joint we are able to taper the strength until it gets to a 'safe' distance from the joint. The steel used in the lugs gets fairly hard after brass or silver brazing. The alloy in the tubes is allot more hard than the lug after brazing so no worries about undue stress. I usually heat the under side of the down tube and top tube in a well controlled operation to increase the tubes hardness where older designed bikes would get a wrinkle when crashed into something immovable. You need to be careful when doing this. These newer alloys are very nice to use.

The fork tips, fork crown, BB shell, rear drops, and the chainstay bridge are heat treated alloy steel for strength. The little bits are a stainless alloy.

[devlin]

Sorry you don't like the bridge. As usual when something new comes along it will inevitably come under scrutiny / suspicion as well it should. At least I am always from the "let's look at this thing long and hard before accepting it" camp.

No need to be sorry. It's purely a personal aesthetic thing and in some ways there are things I do like about it.

Thank you for taking time to explain and answer it is hugely appreciated. I only ask because I like this stuff and is never asked as a criticism always as I want learn.

[Mark Kelly]

Hey Mark!
I looked at your 'hot box' and thought it looked so cowboy that it looked like something I would do. Nice.
BTW, if you want to PM me regarding your other projects that use the green wire it would be fun for me. I can only dream of a pair of SE GM-70 amps.

Thanks for the reply, I wasn't expecting you to bust any trade secrets but I'm very interested in the subject of stress distribution at the joints.

Re the box, yeah, I'm not much of a carpenter and I'm having to do things on the cheap as much as possible: I really hear you when you talk about the opportunity cost of the time you've put into this project. I calculate I've dug a $200k hole for myself with what I'm doing, a hole I may not be able to fill at my age.

Re the amps, I'm running PP 211s, I wrote it up for "Glass Audio" when they still existed. I built a CF composite chassis for the amp back in the 90s, this was part of the genesis of my interest in the acoustics of composites. I still do some stuff for TTs, see this thread. In dreamworld, I'll see your GM70s and raise you 212Es (PP of course).

[e-RICHIE]

Is that a blatant plug?
I don't know if I ripped you off. Isn't the regular SL blade based on 24mm diameter? What ever, mine is only one size up. I don't remember but I think it is based on one inch dia.

Is that a reply, or a volley back over the net?
The UOS blades are 27mm.
What size are you using?

And the tubes are all sourced from RTL. mama mia!

What is RTL?

besides, i wouldn't tell the world if i ripped you off, would i? pia madona!

No one reads here, so I'll check back and see if you post back to me atmo.

[oopfoo]

Hi, guys. It's been some time since I've shown my face here, since I've been spending more time working and playing music than cycling, of late.

I just thought I should pop in and own up to purchasing a 40th Anniversary Allez. To be honest, I have never owned a Specialized bike, but they are one of the reasons I started riding, then racing, in the 80s. Yes, I was a victim of American Flyers. Yes, I STILL LOVE THAT DAMNABLE MOVIE. And they rode red steel Allez and I HAD TO HAVE ONE, too. Yes, it's demented and sad. Yes, I do have thousands of dollars invested in custom bikes. Yes, I haven't been riding for shit. No, I don't think my wife will notice it if I tuck it between the Kirk, the Moots, the Pogliaghi, the Argonauts, the 7-Eleven team frame...somewhere over in that area of red bikes.

I'll be building this bike up in a classic fashion, most likely. I have weird stuff lying about, like NOS Dura Ace and NOS Suntour Superbe. If not, well, maybe it'll be classic Campy. Who knows?

I've lost thirty pounds in the past year, but even though I'm in good shape, I'm still not quite right. You see, I miss this sport far too much to be so involved with work. I miss my friends. I miss road trips. I miss my obsession. And maybe throwing on a Hell of the West jersey and going out on the Friday night 15-miles-and-beer ride will be good for my soul.

[Will Neide]

What is RTL?

Reynolds Technology, LTD.

[NBC]

i talked to paul from reynolds a while back and he said that they were also developing a 27mm fork blade, so who knows !

NBC

[spokesniffer]

i talked to paul from reynolds a while back and he said that they were also developing a 27mm fork blade, so who knows !

For the curious, here is an xsection.....Blade X.jpg

-BB

[dinucci]

Is that a reply, or a volley back over the net?
The UOS blades are 27mm.
What size are you using?


What is RTL?


No one reads here, so I'll check back and see if you post back to me atmo.

I am not foolish enough to volley with you.
You made me check.
25.4 x 0.8.
12.5 x pretty thin.

Reynolds.

27! that make uber apropos.

The head tube is a non-standard diameter in order to save some weight.
The seat stays are double butted too.

I don't plan on selling any of this stuff.
Please don't rip me off. I am but a poor man. You are a Rich man.

Got to do some stuff today, will be away.

[e-RICHIE]

I am not foolish enough to volley with you.
You made me check.
25.4 x 0.8.
12.5 x pretty thin.

Reynolds.

27! that make uber apropos.

The head tube is a non-standard diameter in order to save some weight.
The seat stays are double butted too.

I don't plan on selling any of this stuff.
Please don't rip me off. I am but a poor man. You are a Rich man.

Got to do some stuff today, will be away.

Mark - as I wrote in my second reply (Post 27) on this new frame thread, the project should be celebrated, not dissected. As the story unfolds, it's clear that it's a collaboration rather than a Mark designing something and lending his name to a Mike. I can't possibly fathom how deep the hole is but I wish all the best for you in clearing up the accounts. Mention has been made of the Specialized tie-in and how that could cloud the glass we're looking through. All I can say is I hope they'd take care of you in the not too distant future. Heck - I'm a water bottle customer so don't want to blaspheme them in public. But man, when I re-read the thread above I was astonished regarding what you left the table with...

If I use the amount of money it takes me to live my rudimentary lifestyle, multiplied by the number of months that I have spent solely on this project, I find that I have used over one hundred thousand dollars of my own money to bring this project to where it is today. My credit card is maxxed-out at 30K with me seeing no way to pay it off in the foreseeable future. Can you see how deeply I believe in this bike?

[steve garro]

If I use the amount of money it takes me to live my rudimentary lifestyle, multiplied by the number of months that I have spent solely on this project, I find that I have used over one hundred thousand dollars of my own money to bring this project to where it is today. My credit card is maxxed-out at 30K with me seeing no way to pay it off in the foreseeable future. Can you see how deeply I believe in this bike?

Damn…….That's considerable.
I hope the venture pays, your self branded bikes are pretty damn nice.

- Garro.

[dinucci]

Damn…….That's considerable.
I hope the venture pays, your self branded bikes are pretty damn nice.

- Garro.

Hi Steve
I just looked at your stuff for the first time. Nice. Looks like you have been around the block a few times. Therefore your compliment means even more to me. Thank You very much.

[dinucci]

Mark - as I wrote in my second reply (Post 27) on this new frame thread, the project should be celebrated, not dissected. As the story unfolds, it's clear that it's a collaboration rather than a Mark designing something and lending his name to a Mike. I can't possibly fathom how deep the hole is but I wish all the best for you in clearing up the accounts. Mention has been made of the Specialized tie-in and how that could cloud the glass we're looking through. All I can say is I hope they'd take care of you in the not too distant future. Heck - I'm a water bottle customer so don't want to blaspheme them in public. But man, when I re-read the thread above I was astonished regarding what you left the table with...

Hey Richard
Thanks for your kind words. You have brought the proper perspective here when you say this should be celebrated. Forget the rest of the negative stuff. This is something new and should make us all happy to see an addition to our steel bicycle pursuits. Life is too short to not be happy about anything like this project.

I understand that from the first glance this bike doesn't look that much different. An old Roman concrete bridge doesn't look much different than a concrete structure that has been re-enforced with steel rebar. The re-enforced structure is completely new. A concrete structure that uses pre-stressed concrete doesn't look much different than the one with rebar but it is completely new.

There is so much you can't see about this bike. I have already highlighted most of the details and will offer to discuss it further if folks want to hear about it.

Thanks again for bringing the proper perspective.

[dinucci]

Hey Richard
Thanks for your kind words. You have brought the proper perspective here when you say this should be celebrated. Forget the rest of the negative stuff. This is something new and should make us all happy to see an addition to our steel bicycle pursuits. Life is too short to not be happy about anything like this project.

I understand that from the first glance this bike doesn't look that much different. An old Roman concrete bridge doesn't look much different than a concrete structure that has been re-enforced with steel rebar. The re-enforced structure is completely new. A concrete structure that uses pre-stressed concrete doesn't look much different than the one with rebar but it is completely new.

There is so much you can't see about this bike. I have already highlighted most of the details and will offer to discuss it further if folks want to hear about it.

Thanks again for bringing the proper perspective.

Richard
Upon re-reading and finding a more deep understanding to your response I feel obligated to state again that I view this project as a very fortunate opportunity. I chose to spend as much time as I thought appropriate in order to achieve the result I wanted. I was not negatively pressured or persuaded by Specialized in any way. They allowed me to have this opportunity, for which I am grateful.

It seems that in some social circles it has been popular to bash big companies such as Shimano or Specialized without being grateful for their contributions. Let's face it, they have made the most significant advancements in cycling for at least the last ten to twenty years.

Bottom line is, this project took more time than I thought it would and that is one of the reasons it has cost me as much as it has. Please do not view Specialized in a negative way. I don't. I am grateful.

[e-RICHIE]

Richard
Upon re-reading and finding a more deep understanding to your response I feel obligated to state again that I view this project as a very fortunate opportunity. I chose to spend as much time as I thought appropriate in order to achieve the result I wanted. I was not negatively pressured or persuaded by Specialized in any way. They allowed me to have this opportunity, for which I am grateful.

It seems that in some social circles it has been popular to bash big companies such as Shimano or Specialized without being grateful for their contributions. Let's face it, they have made the most significant advancements in cycling for at least the last ten to twenty years.

Bottom line is, this project took more time than I thought it would and that is one of the reasons it has cost me as much as it has. Please do not view Specialized in a negative way. I don't. I am grateful.

Thanks - briefly as i prepare for 110 minutes in the pain cave atmo...

1) I am a huge fan of the industrial made (for lack of a better term) bicycles and the ways in which they've raised the bar that effbuilders have to hop over in order to stay au courant (that's French for maintaining relevance, or some shit like that...).
2) I agree about the opportunity this afforded you. Reminds me in a strange way about when me and Peter fell into the Witcomb USA gig and had an employer who threw endless sums of money at us just so we could get whatever tools, fixtures, and materials we wanted in order to fill the commissions.

Ceya

[TexPat]

Richard
Upon re-reading and finding a more deep understanding to your response I feel obligated to state again that I view this project as a very fortunate opportunity. I chose to spend as much time as I thought appropriate in order to achieve the result I wanted. I was not negatively pressured or persuaded by Specialized in any way. They allowed me to have this opportunity, for which I am grateful.

It seems that in some social circles it has been popular to bash big companies such as Shimano or Specialized without being grateful for their contributions. Let's face it, they have made the most significant advancements in cycling for at least the last ten to twenty years.

Bottom line is, this project took more time than I thought it would and that is one of the reasons it has cost me as much as it has. Please do not view Specialized in a negative way. I don't. I am grateful.

No doubt that The Company provided a means to an end here that few if any independent frame builders have the ducats for. That's very fortunate for you, and must be a vote of confidence for your skill and reputation. Your gratitude is justifiable.

However, the part of your reply that I've identified here in bold, will rankle quite a few. Would you mind elaborating what those "significant advancement" were?

Lastly, given your skill, worth and reputation, I hope that The Company has provided you with the rights to the intellectual property from this project. For what it's worth, their reputation past and present is more than a little predatory when it comes to ownership of ideas; they have been criticised more than a few times in my thirty years in the industry of claiming innovation that was hardly their own.

I wish you the best, and look forward to more insight from you.

[dinucci]

No doubt that The Company provided a means to an end here that few if any independent frame builders have the ducats for. That's very fortunate for you, and must be a vote of confidence for your skill and reputation. Your gratitude is justifiable.

However, the part of your reply that I've identified here in bold, will rankle quite a few. Would you mind elaborating what those "significant advancement" were?

Lastly, given your skill, worth and reputation, I hope that The Company has provided you with the rights to the intellectual property from this project. For what it's worth, their reputation past and present is more than a little predatory when it comes to ownership of ideas; they have been criticised more than a few times in my thirty years in the industry of claiming innovation that was hardly their own.

I wish you the best, and look forward to more insight from you.

Wellytown?
You can get BSA parts there. They have the worlds smallest trucks there, the ones that pull the containers off of the faery (guess i don't know how to spell the boat thing that carries cars).

I worked at the big red S for some years. Yup, they took credit for other peoples work. Yup, they are aggressive when it comes to protecting their brand. Adidas almost lost their rights to use the three bands (le marque aux troid band) because they were a bit lax for a moment. Yup, some folks are going to get rankled, as I am quickly learning. When I asked Shimano for a 73mm BB they said OK. If I was a single builder as I now am, they would have blown me off. Early mountain bikes had 125mm rear hub spacing until the big guys asked for the change. SunTour was great to work with even though they didn't have nearly as much money to work with as did Shimano. Junzo, my hero, rest in peace. When we wanted tapered steerers we had to wait for other big companies to get on board. What I am trying to say is that you need quantities that will allow a product to be profitable enough to succeed. Shimano put the shifter in the brake lever. They introduced the cassette hub so you wouldn't have to replace those beautiful Campagnolo axles all the time. Stuff like that. I'll bet you that there are a bunch of good ideas out there that are not being utilized because the small guys just can't come up with enough money to get those ideas into production. It's simply a matter of capitalism and scale.

Yes the big S has confidence in me, but they sure didn't hesitate to test the stuff. Yes I am supposed to have access to the tooling that makes the parts.

Thanks. chowfernow.

[e-RICHIE]

Wellytown?
You can get BSA parts there. They have the worlds smallest trucks there, the ones that pull the containers off of the faery (guess i don't know how to spell the boat thing that carries cars).

I worked at the big red S for some years. Yup, they took credit for other peoples work. Yup, they are aggressive when it comes to protecting their brand. Adidas almost lost their rights to use the three bands (le marque aux troid band) because they were a bit lax for a moment. Yup, some folks are going to get rankled, as I am quickly learning. When I asked Shimano for a 73mm BB they said OK. If I was a single builder as I now am, they would have blown me off. Early mountain bikes had 125mm rear hub spacing until the big guys asked for the change. SunTour was great to work with even though they didn't have nearly as much money to work with as did Shimano. Junzo, my hero, rest in peace. When we wanted tapered steerers we had to wait for other big companies to get on board. What I am trying to say is that you need quantities that will allow a product to be profitable enough to succeed. Shimano put the shifter in the brake lever. They introduced the cassette hub so you wouldn't have to replace those beautiful Campagnolo axles all the time. Stuff like that. I'll bet you that there are a bunch of good ideas out there that are not being utilized because the small guys just can't come up with enough money to get those ideas into production. It's simply a matter of capitalism and scale.

Yes the big S has confidence in me, but they sure didn't hesitate to test the stuff. Yes I am supposed to have access to the tooling that makes the parts.

Thanks. chowfernow.

Without chopping up your post and replying to selected words and thoughts, I'll leave it intact and add a comment. From what you describe - what you are saying according to my opinion - is why I like the big companies. In a perverse, Bizarro-like world, these firms have embraced Framebuilder Mind. They innovate. They test. They support the sport. They lead. These brands now (and for a long time...) do what framebuilders traditionally did. but hardly do anymore. I'm glad I got to live and work in both eras atmo.

[spokesniffer]

Lastly, given your skill, worth and reputation, I hope that The Company has provided you with the rights to the intellectual property from this project.

I'll weigh in a bit here since I was the one that made this project happen for Mark, someone I count as one of my very closest friends...(in my spare time I am the janitor at DiNucci cycles). The tooling for this development is indeed owned by Mark and one of the things I wanted to try to accomplish is to protect him from the usual story that occurs in Asia where you suddenly find the product you sweated long and hard to design for sale by the very factory that did your development work. A big company can influence that and by funneling this work through Specialized we will have as good a shot at making that happen as is possible. There is a lot more going on here than just making 74 bikes. Mark & I were responsible for the bike line out of Specialized in the 80's up until I left the place in 90 and we had free creative rein to do what we wanted and had a pretty damn good time doing it. I always missed that collaboration and this was a chance to reassemble the band and to help underwrite Mark's work. We have always had a near perfect collaboration and someone is going to have to walk over my body to fuck this up for Mark. I would agree with everyone here that the 'S' has had it's share of colossal screw ups and has earned whatever reputation it has, so I get the hard bag here. But this collaboration runs way outside the usual program and is also fueled by my own passion for steel and my deep respect for Mark's skills and vision. Now all I need is to see some DiNucci crafted versions hit the road.

-BB

[duanedr]

Now all I need is to see some DiNucci crafted versions hit the road.

-BB

I worry that in 10 years, we'll see 50 of the 74 available on ebay (or Alibaba!) as 'NOS' frameset. I hope they are enjoyed by those who purchase them.