A Completely New Frame

[Andrew R Stewart]

I don't know Mr. Dinucci at all other than the stuff on the internet that shows he makes some pretty bikes people seem to like. I certainly wasn't calling him out on any numbers because there weren't any. Just implications that tubing and lug manufactures are no longer trying to develop anything better, they're just making substandard same old stuff. And of all the small handbuilders who work in steel very few of them are capable of "getting it". And only because of Specialized money can any advances be made in steel frame components. I have nothing against Specialized moving into the all of the bicycle niche markets ,and if they have some secrets they want to share lets see them, but save the marketing for somewhere else. But as I explained earlier this was my first post in these forums and maybe I'm off base but I found his wording to insulting.

ken

What some might find insulting is someone who hasn't established their credentials yet taking on one of the most experienced builders in the first post to this forum. We try to have thick skin here and also try to be able to buy each other a beer and enjoy out differing opinions. How one finds that balance, being able to discuss fine points of one's passion, is what I'm seeing here. I'm not as considerate as Bryant is in saying this in my way. But I'd still offer to buy Ken a beer and listen to his thoughts sometime.

BTW I never read into Mark's comments any slight towards other (small) builders or their efforts to make the best frames that they are capable of. I, however, did read some marketing hype about how much a jump in performance these new tubes and components will be. But that's what marketing does and I'm use to that. Andy.

[Mike Mcdermid]

Tough crowd? sometimes works out you can build a lambourghini but people prefer a vintage car

[Too Tall]

Gently boys and girls go gently. There have been some tremendous and ongoing efforts by many builders many here on the forum to prototype and bring to full fruition new designs, fittings, tools, tubes, lugs.....you get the idea yes? Look at what Garro, Sachs et all more closely and cherish that this community is continuously evolving NOT dying and NOT riding the backs of large box bike companies for advances. Mark flat out killed it, appreciate that take a breath and keep reading.
Now, lets see some bikes :)

[Will Neide]

Gently boys and girls go gently. There have been some tremendous and ongoing efforts by many builders many here on the forum to prototype and bring to full fruition new designs, fittings, tools, tubes, lugs.....you get the idea yes? Look at what Garro, Sachs et all more closely and cherish that this community is continuously evolving NOT dying and NOT riding the backs of large box bike companies for advances. Mark flat out killed it, appreciate that take a breath and keep reading.
Now, lets see some bikes :)

If this were a closed to public viewing type thread, you would see far more comments regarding the OP, and subsequent posts by BB, IMO. We have business links in our sigs so no one wants to be "that guy," but never once have I seen Garro or Sachs make some outlandish claims about their products and try to pass it off as something it is not. There is a place for marketing, and this forum is not it. The OP was bought and paid for by Specialized with a blank check. Even says it in the one article linked.

[crumpton]

its no fucking wonder so many great talents have left this behind...

[Mike Mcdermid]

its no fucking wonder so many great talents have left this behind...

AWWW Thanks nick .then I realised if you were on about me you would have put "so many awesomely great talents that exude awesome from every orifice and should have monuments built in their name".......

[e-RICHIE]

There is no thread tying all of us together. The industry passed this niche over long ago, and what's left is an asterisk. The people - us - we're not asterisks, but as a working demographic, we certainly are. For those who complain about a dearth of materials to work with, or the quality available, or variety, or others who lament the low remuneration or even the low barrier of entry that allows internet effbuilders or bloggers to play on the same field as those who came up in a more systematic way and developed skills and experience that preceded their hanging out a shingle - to those who complain about the state of things: show me the money atmo. Have stuff made. Put something back into the trade. Make a stand against mediocrity. Speak out when the bar drops season by season. And help those who may benefit from the time you've spent getting to where you are. There's no crying in framebuilding.

I'm not defending Mark or the Specialized project. I don't have to. But the collaboration should be celebrated regardless of what one's opinion of the 74 frames happens to be.

[e-RICHIE]

PS Posts on V Salon Frame Forum that don't comply with the user agreement will be deleted atmo.

[Burnette]

I gravitate towards hand made things because of my age and the environment of my youth. Aunts, brothers, sisters, many of us have some modicum of talent, be it drawing, painting, writing.
My grandmother, who has since past, use to sew clothes by hand from very old tattered patterns. Back in the eighties, she had fallen on a difficult time of stress. I went to Piece Goods and bought fifty some dollars worth of fabric, lace and buttons. It was a big haul for those days, dollar went farther. She was really stunned when I dropped all that stuff off, her eyes lit up and the mind was thinking, she was appreciative but said little and disappeared into her room. Calls back to her found her in good spirits and talk of ideas about patterns and stitching which I knew nothing about of course.
Months later I got a call from my sisters. My grandmother had made several dresses for five of my nieces. They were just beautiful. To this day they are treasured heirlooms and the designs have stood the test of time.
This is the reason why I don’t miss any Friday Night Lights posts, to see the creative process in action is the main meal. It’s much more rewarding to see the raw vision coming together than just the flickr money shots alone. Pictures of welding, frames in a jig, files on the table, a steel fork with a rack laid against a wall.
I have thought in the past that if I were to win the lottery, I would commission a frame from several builders here, with the request that it be not a novelty, but a frame that moved the material forward. A frame they would make if they had less compromises with materials, new tools and test equipment and the gift of time to make it happen.
Mr. DiNucci, you have been given this chance and it looks great. The chain stay brace, BB, smoothed lugs, seems a shame to cover them with paint. Please post more pictures and information as you can, it looks like an awesome project.

Wayne Burnette
Aficionado of the working man’s/woman's hand made wears

[spokesniffer]

Just implications that tubing and lug manufactures are no longer trying to develop anything better, they're just making substandard same old stuff. And of all the small handbuilders who work in steel very few of them are capable of "getting it".
ken

Ken, the point being made on lugs and tubes is that where we once had a range of choices and steady focus on innovation, we now have lost that momentum, largely due to other materials being the focus on mainstream bikes. Markets change, investments move. My secondary point is that there are fewer choices in makers who can produce the quality of product we once had from Hiro Tange or Microfusione. There are only a few places to make lugs now and if you compare them carefully to the best incast of the 80's we are no longer getting the quality we once did. This is not a slam on anyone, just a note of the declining resources lovers of steel bikes face. I have obviously seen the changes, but it wasn't until I tried to develop things I had once easily developed in the 80's that I saw just how deep the erosion of skills and quality was.

-Bryant Bainbridge

[e-RICHIE]

...the quality of product we once had from Hiro Tange or Microfusione. There are only a few places to make lugs now and if you compare them carefully to the best incast of the 80's we are no longer getting the quality we once did. <cut>

I can't agree on that. I was there too, and while MFI and Hitachi did nice work for the industry, it was nice for the time as well ahead of it. But there are houses now who are the present iteration of what was. And they were there too, and their quality also evolved exponentially with the times. The key is making sure the art file they work from has no holes in it atmo. It's never been a better time to be in the trade, doing this work, provided that you have the experience and skill set.

[Mike Mcdermid]

the future

empire-cycles-renishaw-worlds-first-3d-printed-mountain-bike2.jpg

[shirk]

Mike what is the value on a printer capable of that Renishaw/Empire project?

[Mike Mcdermid]

Mike what is the value on a printer capable of that Renishaw/Empire project?

The EOS machines we used a few years back were 250k supported ,renishaws might be similar money

[spokesniffer]

I can't agree on that. I was there too, and while MFI and Hitachi did nice work for the industry, it was nice for the time as well ahead of it. But there are houses now who are the present iteration of what was. And they were there too, and their quality also evolved exponentially with the times. The key is making sure the art file they work from has no holes in it atmo.

Well Richard, I admit to not seeing as well as I once did, but someday we need to have a beer and line up some of the old and new and pour over a few details. As the guy that takes those files and develops them into lugs I guess I am not seeing what you see, but trifocals ARE the order of the day. A file without holes is a given and only the baseline. I'm talking about what happens after you hand that file over....the ability to cast thin, fine details, deliver fine grain structure and do all that consistently.....round...warp free...no shrink or tolerance issues.... or to keep all the beautiful compound curves you sweated over in design and not lose them in the translation to electrode...the percentage of rejects in production. The kind of tolerances I saw in this project were skewed towards fast, easy production as opposed to what we once saw in Japan. I would also add that if we take a global look at the number of skilled lug casting houses, it is now a pretty small audience. I'm not saying you can't get good work if you are willing to seek out the best, invest time and monitor the process...but I am saying it is much harder than it once was and you need to bring a magnifying glass and question the details. Hell, we even got to the point where we were suggesting heat treatment process changes on tubes in order to get what we were after here. But enough of that. I do want to say that I tip my hat your way for being one of the few to invest in new tubes and lugs that keep this moving, providing more options and inspiration for people that create. We need all of that we can get.

Bryant Bainbridge

[dinucci]

its no fucking wonder so many great talents have left this behind...

Hi Nick!
Sorry you couldn't make it to BAMF this year as you would have loved it, hope your project gets done in time. We had a great time with so many great people there. From Ted Earnst to the builders, everyone was full of enthusiasm and knowledge that was applied to having fun while learning more about the bicycle. You would have liked the characters (mostly us builders) sitting in the lobby until quite late trying to come up with a better "story" then the one just told. The mens race was interesting in that the peloton was controlled for last half by one team, real ballsy, real fast.

Quite a dark contrast to checking in here and getting my balls stomped on by someone who apparently can't get the point of what I have tried to start saying to this forum. I have been asked to get smoked out but with some of the bad attitude going on here I have to ask myself if it is worth it.

"so many great talents have left this behind..." indeed.

[dinucci]

If this were a closed to public viewing type thread, you would see far more comments regarding the OP, and subsequent posts by BB, IMO. We have business links in our sigs so no one wants to be "that guy," but never once have I seen Garro or Sachs make some outlandish claims about their products and try to pass it off as something it is not. There is a place for marketing, and this forum is not it. The OP was bought and paid for by Specialized with a blank check. Even says it in the one article linked.

What is an OP? Or, what is the OP?

[Mark Kelly]

What is an OP? Or, what is the OP?

OP = Original Poster, the author of the first post in the thread. That would be you, Mark.

Can we ignore the trolls and talk about your work? Back in post #3 I asked about the alloy used, I'm also really interested in the thinking behind the chainstay junctions.

[Jonathan]

Hey Mark,

I'm really interested in what you guys found lacking in the heat treatment of 853 wrt to how it worked with lugs and what changes you had Reynolds make. That's some really interesting technical info hinted at above. And thanks for hopefully slticking out some of the negativity. Lots of folks here would like to hear what you have to say.

Jonathan

[Dancingbear]

So I'm not the hippest cat here when it comes to abbreviations, but I believe OP refers to the "original post" in the thread, or the "original poster".