worldwide skills shortage

[bencooper]

theoretical development of totally useless quantum physics shit

You typed that on a computer which only works because of that "totally useless quantum physics shit".

I have no formal training in engineering, manufacturing or any skills qualifications at all. What I do have is a degree in astrophysics. 17 years later, I can't remember the Lane-Emden equations of stellar structure - but the ways of thinking logically, learning to look for basic first principles are useful every day. So don't knock knowledge you don't understand.

Mike, not sure what to suggest other than perhaps looking for people who are really into bikes. Someone who is interested in engineering might (wrongly) think that bikes are less interesting than cars or aerospace, but someone coming to it from a love of bikes might be more interested in learning how to make really good ones.

[Mike Mcdermid]

Funny they say those that cant teach, do you think your the only guy that's ever worked in high tech engineering,I got bored of industries a lot of people dream of working in and declined studying for a phd as for my grammar in not a fan of typing on phones so don't give a shit about you phd arrogance or much else you opinionated pricki

Ok im sat in front of a pc rather than chasing text round a 4.5 inch screen that only just lets you see enough of a sentence to see a couple of words before it.

in answer to

1 Read the bit where I pointed out we set money aside for people not cheap money but in UK terms a good earner

1.5 You couldn't make out last nights/ this mornings early post , we have offered to train interested parties but as with a lot of guys who have an interest in bike building they want to go their own way and you end up trying to tame a wild horse.

2. When you start paying my wages you can ask about my professionalism ,there are peoples opinions I value on here based not on their degrees or the PHD they have on their wall ,and they don't call my ability to write shit on a Nokia 930 at 1am in a morning

3. I know plenty of people some who are real rocket scientists they know how to build rockets Cars Stealth planes Nuclear submarines....hell even the bits that go boom in the Nuclear submarines , Don at anvil knows how to build jigs he's made a buisness out of selling them I wont dare speak for him as its not right but I'm sure he has a web page that will disagree with an electrical PHD on the internet, in fact fuck I think a whole raft of guys who actually build bikes might agree with him because they bought a jig from him and didn't employ a Rocket scientist to do it for them

I worked with lots of PHDs at the Boeing composites development centre some were ok some couldn't tie a shoe lace in terms of ability ,the common thing though it does appear is that they try to rearrange the problem to suit their solution then try and justify it.

I'm going to go and stand in front of my CNC machine now and make stuff now because lifes simple that way

[pruckelshaus]

I'm a public school teacher. High school up until last year, now middle school.

EVERYTHING in public education is about going to college. What % of graduating class goes to college, overall average SAT scores, etc. That's the only way that they know how to measure success in a way that is understandable to the vast majority of the public. Also, tech school has several layers of stigma -- it's where the "dumb kids" go, the bad students, the f*ck ups. Thing is, for many students (myself included), they have no real idea of what they want to do after HS.

Personally, I disagree with this. I encourage my students to discover what they love to do, and pursue that.

I would love to see real-world STEM schools that combine rigorous technology, engineering, math, etc. curriculum with design, machine skills, fabrication, testing, iteration, and invention. I don't see that ever happening unless large manufacturers (big 3 automotive, Boeing, GE, etc.) get behind it.

Pete Ruckelshaus

[edoz]

Think about a factory in Ohio that made toasters in the '60s & '70s. 100 line workers, 3-4 accountants, 1 lawyer.

All those guys making toasters saved & put their kids through college to become lawyers or accountants. Do the math. The numbers simply don't add up. Never mind that the toaster factory closed a long time ago.

I have a buddy in Dallas who owns a company that makes parts for airlines. He currently manufacturers 7 different skus. He says there is demand for another 20 parts, but he simply can't find the machine operators in Dallas.

Mind boggling how as a country we can spend billions of dollars on meaningless bullshit, but can't get meaningful Trade Education. Think how easy it is to get a student loan for doctorate in Bullshit Studies, but the facilities and funds are nearly nonexistent for the trades.

I've been in metal fab for 15 years, and in that time I've never worked anywhere that was fully staffed. They were all begging for welders, machinists, and other skilled tradesmen. Hiring guys that couldn't weld their way out of a wet paper bag in the hopes that we could train them up.
Anyone who's friends with me on Facebook has probably seen some of what I have to work with. I came straight out and asked the last kid "Who welded your test plates for you?" Because there was no way he fucking passed our weld test. Hired anyway.
Meanwhile, they want the rest of us to work 80hrs a week to make up for it.

[Jonathan]

I have a buddy who is a union boss for operating engineers(crane operators). Union guys get such a bad wrap but what I see him doing a lot is working with local high school principals and guidance counselors to identify kids who who are very capable but need to be on a different track than other folks. He works with lots of at risk kids. It works. A crane operator is a good job that's not being replaced by minimum wage labor or outsourced to low wage countries.

[ron l edmiston]

[QUOTE=Jonathan;617883]I have a buddy who is a union boss for operating engineers(crane operators). Union guys get such a bad wrap but what I see him doing a lot is working with local high school principals and guidance counselors to identify kids who who are very capable but need to be on a different track than other folks. He works with lots of at risk kids. It works. A crane operator is a good job that's not being replaced by minimum wage labor or outsourced to low wage countries.

--------------------------------------------

we need more crane operators & less crane management... --- never thought i would feel this or say this..
but, "there is life after death.."

ronnie with re-kindled smile

[cicli polito]

Cleveland, Ohio has one of the "worst" public school districts in the country, according to many styles of metrics as well as qualitative study. It's just flat-out terrible. However, speaking to the value of Technical and Vocational high schools when mixed with the support of local mid-sized private manufacturing sector, as Pruckleshaus mentioned above, we have Max Hayes Technical High School.

Max Hayes has been doing well enough over the past decade that the Cleveland Metropolitan School District is completely renovating the building in which the school is currently housed, as well as building a BRAND new facility to house the main school. The CMSD can't keep a President or CEO for more than a year or two, is hundreds of millions of dollars lacking in budget, but are pushing through with this new construction project.

One of the reasons for this, in my mind, is that the school is closely linked to a local Private-sector manufacturing non-profit organization named WIRE-Net.

WIRE-Net: New Max Hayes

Max S. Hayes High School / Homepage

Kids, and older folks who are attempting to get their GED as well as find a foothold in a trade, are practically busting down the doors at this school to get in. There is no stigma about "bad kids," or that it's the school where fuck-ups go, or whatever, because the fact of the matter is when only 21% of the graduating class in the ENTIRE school district is nationally proficient in mathematics and 30% nationally proficient in reading (seriously, of those who actually see High School through to the end and manage to graduate, 1 in 3 can read well, and 1 in 4 can mathematically problem solve) every single school is already filled with "bad kids."

It's a shame that it's taken such a rock-bottom approach to get there, (i.e. we have practically nothing left, but vocational school is working so let's keep throwing money at it and build it back up from zero) but locally it is pretty awesome to see its minor success. I hope that there are many more intersections of private non-profit manufacturing organizations that link up with public school districts on a Macro level all across the country/world. I don't want to see a "GE" school, or a "Boeing" school sort of thing, personally, but if it has to be done directly from corporation to school district than at least it is a small step in a good direction. Small proof that here, at least for now, vocational school is making tangible and noticeable differences in our little metropolitan area.

One of the things I might suggest to you Mike (The OP) is that you talk with anybody local in your area who is a manager/facilitator/principal etc. with kids and adults that are coming up through the ranks. Grab a beer or coffee (tea?) with them and let them know what you're doing, what it is that you are looking for, and say something like "keep an eye out for me, if you see somebody who might have potential to fit in, let me know." These folks see this kids and adults on a daily basis, whereas during an interview you get them for what, half an hour?

It doesn't particularly help with the "I need to hire somebody TODAY" kind of thing, but it can definitely pay dividends in the long run. Rosko's suggestion of looking at die setting/sheet/job shops hell even wood shops is also something I think is a great idea. These folks generally are satisfied in working with their hands, and a few of them definitely have the chops to work and the desire to succeed and may very well be driven by something much greater than meets the eye.

Good luck.

[cicli polito]

#3 - ... Making sure your jig is accurate to half a thou is an academic exercise like the theoretical development of totally useless quantum physics shit and is a waste of time/resources.

and while I'm on here actually, I have to say I completely disagree with this statement in more than a few ways. I'll keep it short though. Let's make it easy for those following along at home with or without a PhD and call it an even thou. Indicating or checking that your frame fixture has been spec'd to be accurate, by some measure of alignment, to .001" or a thou, (.0254mm from here on out) is totally necessary for a lot of us. Rule of thumb I've always heard is ensure that your inspection equipment is accurate to a magnitude two resolutions greater than what you're actually trying to measure. So, if the goal is the commonly spouted "my frames are within 1mm in alignment", and you want to actually measure that, your inspection equipment should be able to quantitatively document .01mm, or 0.000393."

Building bikes is not rocket science, and hundreds of thousands have rolled off of assembly lines and out of garages with no alignment, or even no jig at all. They work just fine. But as a custom bicycle builder, I like to be a little more refined than that personally. If I tell a customer or potential customer that their frame will be accurate to within "X," because I want to offer that information to them, I better sure as shit be able to back it up. For me, that means a calibrated surface plate, an analog dial indicator with .01mm resolution mounted to a surface gauge, a height gauge with .01mm resolution, and precision ground v-blocks and sliding parallels. If my jig weren't indicated to be within the same order of magnitude as my inspection tools, that would all be completely useless.

Measuring with that sort of accuracy has also tremendously helped me over the years with my brazing/welding pattern and sequence because it has allowed me to see actual measurements on how much I screwed things up with welding sequences that didn't work for me and didn't make the tubes happy. On the other end of the spectrum, when I say to myself "Damn, this frame feels straight as an arrow" after it is brazed up and I put it on the table and there is .18mm of head tube twist, and I am able to measure that accurately, I can pat myself on the back and get some beer with a good constitution.

I'm as much of a "wave the magic wand and make a bike frame under a full moon" person as anybody, but at this point I still throw every single frame on the table to make sure that Mercury in retrograde isn't fucking anything up. I don't care if you agree with the theory of alignment and QC when related to bicycles, or even multi-million dollar pieces of whatever for that matter, but to say it's a waste of time and resources is ridiculous. I am, and many, many other builders, are in fact trying to make $$$ believe it or not, and being able to accurately measure things helps a lot of us produce a revenue stream.

[blasdelf]

I hope that there are many more intersections of private non-profit manufacturing organizations that link up with public school districts on a Macro level all across the country/world. I don't want to see a "GE" school, or a "Boeing" school sort of thing, personally, but if it has to be done directly from corporation to school district than at least it is a small step in a good direction.

It's being done very successfully here: Raisbeck Aviation High School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[MrkiMedo]

Funny, I come from part of the world where "worldwide skills shortage" phrase is often understood as a ticket for possibly better life, or in another words, as something positive.

Anyway, there is some risk in quickly coming to conclusions in possibly shallow parts of labor market. For instance if there is a demand for 100 good brazers, and there are only 50 of them, it may look like there is large demand. But if some school starts delivering them at let's say 50 a year for few years, you quickly get into situation of many people with skill for which there is no market.

Lastly, what do you think of some kind of metalworking as second profession for elderly? It is no longer so physically demanding, and may seem like interesting option to people who over the time lost their competitiveness in their first profession. Is it feasible to teach old dogs new necessary tricks?

[0nelove]

A change in our basic "schooling" mindset is in order. Instead of focusing the majority of our energy on what students need to improve because they are not naturally good at it, we should be focusing the majority of energy on what they are naturally good at, and forget what they aren't. Its so utterly absurd to me that most of the world's "education" systems focus on what we aren't good at, rather than fostering what we are good at.

[mzilliox]

My wife has worked in k-12 education (English teacher, Principal, etc.) for more than 20 years.
I have worked in k-12 for the past 13 years (Technology Director).

The issue with both k-12 and higher-ed is that you are "training" students today for jobs that do not currently exist. The #1 skill students need today is problem solving (and not coding which is what too many educators think - because they follow trends) because it can be applied to any industry. Unfortunately, most students today cannot problem solve because their parents have done everything for them since birth.

This, the market is more fluid than ever, and Job seekers need to also be fluid. We have not been good about seeing the new economy, even though we are run by an economy. As someone who has always prided themselves on quick thinking and problem solving, today makes me cringe. Its not just parents doing everything for kids. its also phones doing everything for everyone. The easy access to info on the phone has crippled the critical thinking skills of some folks. Lately i have had to explain to people how to find my address. they are numerical. what do you do when a grown man calls you and says they are at such and such address, what direction do i go? and you have to answer, "toward the smaller numbers" because what else do you say to someone who doesn't seem to get the idea that addresses are in numerical order, and furthermore, the ones on my road corespond to the actual mileage of the road. So sure enough, im at 4300 block which is 4.3 miles from the start of the road. But i have to say "just drive toward the smaller numbers" and hope i didn;t sound like a dick.

[mmoore]

This, the market is more fluid than ever, and Job seekers need to also be fluid. We have not been good about seeing the new economy, even though we are run by an economy. As someone who has always prided themselves on quick thinking and problem solving, today makes me cringe. Its not just parents doing everything for kids. its also phones doing everything for everyone. The easy access to info on the phone has crippled the critical thinking skills of some folks. Lately i have had to explain to people how to find my address. they are numerical. what do you do when a grown man calls you and says they are at such and such address, what direction do i go? and you have to answer, "toward the smaller numbers" because what else do you say to someone who doesn't seem to get the idea that addresses are in numerical order, and furthermore, the ones on my road corespond to the actual mileage of the road. So sure enough, im at 4300 block which is 4.3 miles from the start of the road. But i have to say "just drive toward the smaller numbers" and hope i didn;t sound like a dick.

even is on one side, odd on the other.

[e-RICHIE]

I am reminding some that we ask for a first and last name with every post and comment on Frame Forum.

Thank you.