worldwide skills shortage

[zetroc]

What are you looking for them to do? English major here who can read and pay attention to details and currently drives a truck to pay off debts from English degree.

Email me - zetroc at gmail dot com. Thanks!

[aaronv]

-Bring back shop class.

-Give young adults a choice at grade 10 to pursue a trade school instead of pushing college at all costs while those with no intentions for it idle the last two years of high school while they put in their 'time' which is basically study halls and early release for the last year.

.

The cultural issue is that trades are scene as low status. A young adult from a middle class background would be paddling upstream against the current of family and community judgement by making the choice to go into a trade.

[nash]

That's what happened to me! I wanted to go to guitar building school but my father worked in the trades and saw it as inferior. I was taught to be proud of where I came from but not to pursue a career in anything similar. It's hard to get to get your footing after spending 4 years in college and entering the world with 20k of debt under your belt. Some go on to succeed. But I know a lot of people who just struggle, or tread water. I think it's one of the biggest mistakes and hurdles for my generation.

[Mark Kelly]

we are already looking to hire people for bicycle manufacturing but cant find the skills especially in the UK

anyone had any bright ideas alternative approaches to solving this

Hire Australians: we have successfully destroyed our manufacturing sector here, lots of unemployed fitters around. Mind you, they expect to be paid $40 an hour, have a full social welfare backup and they come equipped with management bullshit detectors, so it might not work for US companies.

Mike, your weather might work against you too.

[Jake Rosenfeld]

The cultural issue is that trades are scene as low status. A young adult from a middle class background would be paddling upstream against the current of family and community judgement by making the choice to go into a trade.

Exactly!! That is what I was speaking to when I said it will take all of us working together to get back. I wasn't saying bring back the old days.
I am not proposing that we glorify the trades or manufacturing just that we stop with the caste system and let young people know that there are jobs available out there that can turn into a career if they choose not to go to college. It seems like we give them a choice now which is 'go to college or........ oh well, whatever... next!'

Its cultural change that we need, the socio-economic cross section that we used to draw a lot of this particular labor force from has been eroded by generations of welfare families who seem to be teaching that attaining the holy grail of full disability classification is a valid retirement plan to aspire towards.

[e-RICHIE]

Its cultural change that we need, the socio-economic cross section that we used to draw a lot of this particular labor force from has been eroded by generations of welfare families who seem to be teaching that attaining the holy grail of full disability classification is a valid retirement plan to aspire towards.

I don't know what that ^ means atmo. Wouldn't it be more correct to say that a generation or three thought that a college degree would be a better path than working with your hands? That is the seed that I see as planted. People wanted better jobs than could be had at factories, or hunched over at a shop bench, or fixing carburetors. String enough of these decades together and you have a legion of middle class people with maybe some brains, but not enough folks left who have any skills. I'm not sure where welfare or the disability stuff fits here. Thanks.

[Jake Rosenfeld]

I don't know what that ^ means atmo. Wouldn't it be more correct to say that a generation or three thought that a college degree would be a better path than working with your hands? That is the seed that I see as planted. People wanted better jobs than could be had at factories, or hunched over at a shop bench, or fixing carburetors. String enough of these decades together and you have a legion of middle class people with maybe some brains, but not enough folks left who have any skills. I'm not sure where welfare or the disability stuff fits here. Thanks.

that's all well and good and I see your point but if you factor in that the products changed during those three generations maybe you could see mine. They don't use carburetors anymore, drill presses have been replaced by cnc machines and laser cutters and water jets that all need qualified people to run them. Why cant trade schools be for teenagers instead of retraining 40sumpins with degrees who are still paying off loans? Or more specifically, why cant we do a better job of letting teens know that its ok?
Chances are you will get some very adept workers from the younger pool with some other smarts who will filter thru to become upper management or even business owners themselves.

The original question was why can't we find enough people to fill the manufacturing labor force? my answer in the last post meant that there is a lot of people who have decided that its easier to sit on the dole than it is to go find work.
If kids only hear 'go to college and make something out of yourself' then what are the kids without means to do that to do? Believe me, there are plenty of kids who don't grok learning stuff as its presented by your typical educational institution but get them going on something physical or constructive and you will struggle to keep up with them.

I also sort of feel like this last recession played a part here as well. Typically when kids graduate from high school without a solid college plan they go and get a job wether its retail or construction. A lot of the time a few months of this is enough to shock them into getting off the fence and they go enroll and start chasing that better life that they were told was there.
For plenty others though, they find something agreeable that they pursue for awhile and then job hop as they narrow down what they like doing and filter into manufacturing and construction This all stopped for 4-5 years because there was just nothing available for anyone or it was already filled by someone older who was over qualified.

Manufacturing and construction are suffering now because of this gap. I'm sure it will level out in time.

[e-RICHIE]

<cut> my answer in the last post meant that there is a lot of people who have decided that its easier to sit on the dole than it is to go find work. <snip>

Got it - thanks atmo.

[Rody]

John Upcraft, formally of Hubcap Cycles, teaches at Penn Tech College in Machine Sciences.

He recently told me that the need in the industry is so great that 95% of all his graduates are immediately placed in positions after a 2 year degree program, many with starting salaries near 50k.

Companies are desperate for trained and qualified workers who have a skill set.

Having worked in "blue collar" trades all my life, I feel as I've contributed to the vacuum that exists by encouraging both my college age children to pursue degrees that lead to careers that have a perception of more prestige and less time washing dirt from their hands before dinner at 10 at night. It's a desire to see them have a "better life", though that seems an empty phrase as career is such a small part of that equation.

Color me guilty.

[Dallas Tex]

Think about a factory in Ohio that made toasters in the '60s & '70s. 100 line workers, 3-4 accountants, 1 lawyer.

All those guys making toasters saved & put their kids through college to become lawyers or accountants. Do the math. The numbers simply don't add up. Never mind that the toaster factory closed a long time ago.

I have a buddy in Dallas who owns a company that makes parts for airlines. He currently manufacturers 7 different skus. He says there is demand for another 20 parts, but he simply can't find the machine operators in Dallas.

Mind boggling how as a country we can spend billions of dollars on meaningless bullshit, but can't get meaningful Trade Education. Think how easy it is to get a student loan for doctorate in Bullshit Studies, but the facilities and funds are nearly nonexistent for the trades.

[Jeffrey Borisch]

Granted this is a thought from the peanut gallery....

We must be emerging from the tail end that sweet spot where we start running out of the overflow of skills that were created in a different era, under different circumstances, on someone else's dime.

When you can't get sufficient performance off the shelf, or of the street as the case may be, start with high grade raw materials and apply lots of time and money.

Meet apprentice Rachel. About 30 minutes in. Sure she's not running a cnc machine, but they are making a real investment I think.

[Chad]

I am guilty of obtaining a relatively useless degree, because dad said I needed to, and I didn't have any other life direction in mind at the time. My son will be a senior in high school in a few weeks. Like most young men his age he has not identified a career he'd like to pursue.

I've been trying to make a point during our career discussions that you can be successful at anything if you work hard. Not just show up, but work hard and be the best at your chosen vocation. Like my brother says, "Go to work everyday and don't spend more than you make."

[Ignignokt]

These companies often want people with a very specific skill set+experience+wages that are about the same as working at a job that requires a far less degree of responsibility (ie. coffee shop). If they absolutely needed to fill positions they would be filled, it's more profitable to run with less because of training costs, government policies that are basically hostile to smaller businesses (and entrepreneurship) and lots and lots of kafka bureaucratic nonsense. People are dis-incentivized on both ends.

[Mike Mcdermid]

These companies often want people with a very specific skill set+experience+wages that are about the same as working at a job that requires a far less degree of responsibility (ie. coffee shop). If they absolutely needed to fill positions they would be filled, it's more profitable to run with less because of training costs, government policies that are basically hostile to smaller businesses (and entrepreneurship) and lots and lots of kafka bureaucratic nonsense. People are dis-incentivized on both ends.

you can really earn 40-60k working in a coffee shop ........fuck this for a game of cards..........where do i sign

[Doug Fattic]

Some of my observations: I’ve taught framebuilding classes for 38 years and have noticed a deterioration of basic hand skills. Of course there were students that had to work hard to get things right back then and outstanding students now but the average has gone down. For whatever reason many 20 and 30 year olds haven’t had as much opportunity to work with their hands.

I too lament the loss of shop class in high school. They have been replaced by computer classes. The reason I think they would still be valuable is that it teaches the basics of how things are made. When I took Herbie on as an apprentice 10 years ago I also taught him how to use my mills and lathes. Logic has to be used to successfully machine something and those same reasoning principles apply creating anything.

By the way, the philosophy of an American liberal arts college education is not to directly teach you skills for a specific job (although sometimes it does). It is to provide a broad knowledge in a wide variety of subjects to make you a better person overall to hire for whatever job. The Europeans educate more specifically.

In my home town of Niles, Michigan, they have started a new technical high school program that is more like a trade school. It has limited enrollment openings (175 if I remember right) and on the day of registration, it was 1st come 1st serve. Kids lined up more than 24 hours in advance like at Best Buy on Thanksgiving Black Friday. Not all of them made it.

Community colleges now fill the void that high school technical education used to fill. I live on the corner of 3 counties and each one has a community college with extensive trade training like CAD and welding. For those of you that don’t live in the States, a community college is typically a 2-year school with much cheaper tuition that is heavily subsidized its local government. Most of them have programs for international students that are looking for only an associate degree. It is fairly common to take the 1st 2 years of college at a community college to save a bundle on tuition before going on to get a bachelor’s degree at a 4-year college.

[Ignignokt]

you can really earn 40-60k working in a coffee shop ........fuck this for a game of cards..........where do i sign

I was browsing around a couple years ago for places with help wanted notifications, there was a CNC position open at a plant near me that makes things like ball bearings for aerospace applications, starting pay: $10.10.

I don't think there is anything particularly special about the population in the US for manufacturing, it takes job training though which is extremely pricey in the US and not so much in less developed countries. Those people can perform the skills needed often very well in addition to the companies facing less government interference, taxes and wages. You see stories like this in the news so much, many jobs open, no one to fill them! If the company could increase profit with more employees, they would be hiring. It's like some kind of propaganda for saying that things aren't that bad.... They are... something is going to crack.

[Mike Mcdermid]

Its like the buy cheap buy twice,we have had guys through the door we said ok, we will teach you how to do x y and z to a pretty high standard hell I you wanna do custo. Building you do it after work and we will happily let you use these facilities and in a year or two if you decide to go your own way we will happily watch you leave the nest and go your own way,hell we will have achieved a production run or two even training em But peoples own arrogance wiil aee them look a gift horse so to speak you cant buy tutoring of composites at our level outside of actually working in F1 but two guys this year ain't been interested

[Rosko]

Mike,
you may want to broaden the search to folks far outside the field or even outside of where they may hear of a job like this. I have met guys laboring in shite metal shops making sinks for restaurants who were trained engineers and/or machinists by trade but as immigrants they found it hard to find the work they were qualified for. You never know what drive the folks at the local panel beater, powder coater, metal gate repair shop might have to see his lot in life improved. Just a thought.

[PJN]

I'm the son of a shop teacher and a "home economics" teacher.

I have a PhD in a technical field. 4 degrees in various disciplines of engineering.

I have been a college educator and I now work in high tech manufacturing. I spend most of my working hours (around 80HPW and I only work four days per week) managing technicians with 2 year and 4 year degrees. The other part is spent wrenching on and troubleshooting multi-million dollar pieces of manufacturing equipment. Sometimes it is fun. Sometimes it is a fucking nightmare.

College (or lack therefore of) has jack shit to do with problem solving and critical thinking skills. Some of the other PhD's I work with are total fucking idiots and some of the "high school only" techs are the most inquisitive problem solvers I have ever met. Shop class helps develop these skills but it isn't the only place where it can happen. Don't knock a formal education in engineering (if it is well tempered with adequate training on communication skills).

If an individual has the chops to and desire to learn (ie teach yourself) they will succeed in whatever career path they set foot on. If one (or both) of these traits are lacking then there will be a problem.

Some notes:
#1 - You gotta pay to get good people. PERIOD.
#1.5 - If you can't find people TRAIN THEM YOURSELF. If you don't have the cash flow to do this see #1.
#2 - If you want to appear professional there is a thing called the shift button and another thing called a run on sentence. Learn how to identify them and when each is appropriate.
#3 - Building bikes isn't rocket science (ask me how I know). Making sure your jig is accurate to half a thou is an academic exercise like the theoretical development of totally useless quantum physics shit and is a waste of time/resources.

Rant over.

James Nelson
PhD Electrical Engineering
I pretend to build bikes in my garage - it's really fun.

[Mike Mcdermid]

I'm the son of a shop teacher and a "home economics" teacher.

I have a PhD in a technical field. 4 degrees in various disciplines of engineering.

I have been a college educator and I now work in high tech manufacturing. I spend most of my working hours (around 80HPW and I only work four days per week) managing technicians with 2 year and 4 year degrees. The other part is spent wrenching on and troubleshooting multi-million dollar pieces of manufacturing equipment. Sometimes it is fun. Sometimes it is a fucking nightmare.

College (or lack therefore of) has jack shit to do with problem solving and critical thinking skills. Some of the other PhD's I work with are total fucking idiots and some of the "high school only" techs are the most inquisitive problem solvers I have ever met. Shop class helps develop these skills but it isn't the only place where it can happen. Don't knock a formal education in engineering (if it is well tempered with adequate training on communication skills).

If an individual has the chops to and desire to learn (ie teach yourself) they will succeed in whatever career path they set foot on. If one (or both) of these traits are lacking then there will be a problem.

Some notes:
#1 - You gotta pay to get good people. PERIOD.
#1.5 - If you can't find people TRAIN THEM YOURSELF. If you don't have the cash flow to do this see #1.
#2 - If you want to appear professional there is a thing called the shift button and another thing called a run on sentence. Learn how to identify them and when each is appropriate.
#3 - Building bikes isn't rocket science (ask me how I know). Making sure your jig is accurate to half a thou is an academic exercise like the theoretical development of totally useless quantum physics shit and is a waste of time/resources.

Rant over.

James Nelson
PhD Electrical Engineering
I pretend to build bikes in my garage - it's really fun.

Funny they say those that cant teach, do you think your the only guy that's ever worked in high tech engineering,I got bored of industries a lot of people dream of working in and declined studying for a phd as for my grammar in not a fan of typing on phones so don't give a shit about you phd arrogance or much else you opinionated pricki