eh? open letter to nahbs

[ergott]

Not to take this circular again, but what wheels at NAHBS are not hand-built atmo?

I still don't think "hand-built" is the point here. That's along the lines of making the argument that Trek should be at the show displaying their Madone 7 or Colnago with their C60 (which I'm not). Those two bike clearly don't meet the spirit of the show, but are both handmade. In fact I could argue that those two bikes have more options available than the offerings of some framebuilders that build their bikes by hand.

[crumpton]

actually Boyd didn't call me...

i understand what Charles means by spec but i really find certain high end stock wheels to be hard to beat.

but i think it is common industry knowledge that machine or robot build wheels are on the lesser of the less quality kit no?

[e-RICHIE]

I still don't think "hand-built" is the point here. That's along the lines of making the argument that Trek should be at the show displaying their Madone 7 or Colnago with their C60 (which I'm not). Those two bike clearly don't meet the spirit of the show, but are both handmade. In fact I could argue that those two bikes have more options available than the offerings of some framebuilders that build their bikes by hand.

The spirit of the show is that the man whose name is on the name tag owns the small business making frames to order. That is the only spirit of the show, and has been the only spirit all along - unless it has changed for 2014. It has nothing to do with components. And if it did, the case could or should be made that most folks buy their forks from mass producers. I mean, where's the spirit in that? Folks who have no skin in the game sure have a lot to say. Nothing new there. You don't see the HEDs, the ENVEs, the Coles, the Fulcrums, or the Shimanos looking for crumbs, and in a left-handed way at that. If someone wants to court an independent cat (as all NAHBS-sters are) let him pick up the phone, or better yet, get a booth, rather than write an op-ed piece.

[ergott]

I was simply commenting to your query on "hand-built" wheels. Handbuilthandmadehandjob shouldn't the justification for what wheels are at the show since it doesn't have much meaning. Just about every high end wheel is hand-hand.

[e-RICHIE]

Ya so then what's the rub? Or the need for the op-ed piece? All the wheels at NAHBS are handmade. And the ones that don't come from a distributor might as well be called custom made versions of the pre-builts because essentially so many cats and kittens are now using the same stew of materials (spokes, rims, and hubs) as those who have the units in a box ready for a framebuilder to buy, add to his bicycle assembly, and also make a good margin on atmo.

[ergott]

Ya so then what's the rub? Or the need for the op-ed piece? All the wheels at NAHBS are handmade. And the ones that don't come from a distributor might as well be call custom made versions of the pre-builts because essentially so many cats and kittens are now using the same stew of materials (spokes, rims, and hubs) as those who have the units in a box ready for a framebuilder to buy, add to his bicycle assembly, and also make a good margin on atmo.

My point is that handmade isn't the only prerequisite (as you and Don rightfully note).

Can all vendors of handmade frames buy a booth?

[e-RICHIE]

My point is that handmade isn't the only prerequisite (as you and Don rightfully note).

Can all vendors of handmade frames buy a booth?

In the past the prerequisite was that your business was built on the made-to-order model.
That is, the order precedes the manufacture. And, if the brand's output exceeded a certain
number (I believe it was a few hundred a year), it was not NAHBS material atmo.

[PezTech]

I think some of the arguments against some builders (hand or not) have come and gone but were better for the show. The same goes for certain products by some builders (stock models and or off shore products that were also "hand built").

Not being able to apply the same definition of "hand built" to wheels (relative to this thread) does seem at least partially duplicitous though.


I would guess that it could be argued for instance that lots of people are using the same tubes to build frames that are also a part of larger production...

None of that is meant to bring this into an argument as there are obvious differences to frame and wheel building.


What I mean to say is there seems to be a whole lot less to be argued / cast as negative here than is being presented.

[e-RICHIE]

I think some of the arguments against some builders (hand or not) have come and gone but were better for the show. The same goes for certain products by some builders (stock models and or off shore products that were also "hand built").

Not being able to apply the same definition of "hand built" to wheels (relative to this thread) does seem at least partially duplicitous though.


I would guess that it could be argued for instance that lots of people are using the same tubes to build frames that are also a part of larger production...

None of that is meant to bring this into an argument as there are obvious differences to frame and wheel building.


What I mean to say is there seems to be a whole lot less to be argued / cast as negative here than is being presented.

Most, if not all framebuilders assemble metal into finished products. Many couldn't figure out what goes where without a cad file. Many can't design a frame without a fitter (sic). Many couldn't assemble a frame without a dedicated fixture. And of course, a lotta cats can't make anything straight without a 2000 pound granite table. There's a whole subculture who go online and ask OTHER framebuilders how to add braze-ons, couplers, and what brazing rod to use. Hardly anyone makes his own forks. So yeah NAHBS era cats are basically assemblers rather than makers or builders. Happy? But the point is also this: to make money, an effbuilder needs a margin. What custom wheelbuilder can sell units at a low enough number so that we can make money on the set when it's part of our assembled bicycle? Class? Bueller? Handmade, pre-built wheels at least give us a fighting chance at profiting. Asked another way, why should we care about how passionate a cat is about his wheelbuilding if he adds nothing to the bottom line?

[ergott]

That's keeping it real.

[ergott]

Asked another way, why should we care about how passionate a cat is about his wheelbuilding if he adds nothing to the bottom line?

Same can be said from the wheelbuilder side.

However, there can be a symbiotic relationship if both partners are getting exposure not otherwise had. Sometimes the framebuilder can benefit from the press of a wheelbuilder and vice-versa. In the case of Wheelbuilder, they get more internet traffic on their site than a lot of small frame builders. If a deal was struck where they shared space on the WB site that could bring in more traffic. I think more people here consider Cole wheels because they are on the RS bikes.

I don't think the open letter was the best way to go about things, but the there is room for discussion for the opportunistic frame builder looking for a larger customer base.

[e-RICHIE]

Same can be said from the wheelbuilder side.

However, there can be a symbiotic relationship if both partners are getting exposure not otherwise had. Sometimes the framebuilder can benefit from the press of a wheelbuilder and vice-versa. In the case of Wheelbuilder, they get more internet traffic on their site than a lot of small frame builders. If a deal was struck where they shared space on the WB site that could bring in more traffic.

I have an idea; they can strike the deal from their booth at NAHBS.

I think more people here consider Cole wheels because they are on the RS bikes.

That would be the result of a strong and long lasting sponsorship where all parties have roles to play so that markets are tapped.

I don't think the open letter was the best way to go about things, but the there is room for discussion for the opportunistic frame builder looking for a larger customer base.

Agreed. VN is as much to blame (for lack of a better word...) here. They printed the text. But remember, it was the opportunistic wheel builder looking for a larger customer base in this instance.

[Mike Mcdermid]

I have an idea; they can strike the deal from their booth at NAHBS.

That would be the result of a strong and long lasting sponsorship where all parties have roles to play so that markets are tapped.

Agreed. VN is as much to blame (for lack of a better word...) here. They printed the text. But remember, it was the opportunistic wheel builder looking for a larger customer base in this instance.

I always had it in my occupying my 3rd braincell that open letter basically meant " i want to slate the "subject matter here" but dont want to sound like a dick and alienate my peers"

I need a drink to kill that braincell now ??

[ergott]

This is an example of the exposure I'm thinking of.

Custom bicycle manufacturers using ENVE Composites tubing, wheels, rims, forks, and components

Something similar could be done by the likes of Hed, WB, Boyd, Chris King (now that they build wheels in house again) etc. I agree that NAHBS booth would be a great place to do this.

[Mike Mcdermid]

This is an example of the exposure I'm thinking of.

Custom bicycle manufacturers using ENVE Composites tubing, wheels, rims, forks, and components

Something similar could be done by the likes of Hed, WB, Boyd, Chris King (now that they build wheels in house again) etc. I agree that NAHBS booth would be a great place to do this.

I dunno if it was truth or rumour but isnt that the same USA based carbon tube supplier who dont want to deal with the little guy?

[e-RICHIE]

This is an example of the exposure I'm thinking of.

Custom bicycle manufacturers using ENVE Composites tubing, wheels, rims, forks, and components

Something similar could be done by the likes of Hed, WB, Boyd, Chris King (now that they build wheels in house again) etc. I agree that NAHBS booth would be a great place to do this.

Most of us do that. Most of them do that. It's called synergy, or cross-branding. Even V Place does it with Smoked Out.
If it take the VN/Wheelbuilder gaffe to encourage folks to do it discretely and with style, then the text from last week will
be well worth it atmo.

[ergott]

I dunno if it was truth or rumour but isnt that the same USA based carbon tube supplier who dont want to deal with the little guy?

That's stuff I honestly know nothing about.

[PezTech]

I have an idea; they can strike the deal from their booth at NAHBS.

That would be the result of a strong and long lasting sponsorship where all parties have roles to play so that markets are tapped.

Agreed. VN is as much to blame (for lack of a better word...) here. They printed the text. But remember, it was the opportunistic wheel builder looking for a larger customer base in this instance.

You're assuming this was just an opportunistic guy looking for a larger customer base rather than a guy that wanted to strike up exactly the type of "strong and long lasting sponsorship where all parties have roles to play so that markets are tapped" not only for himself but for other custom wheel builders as well.

That's why it was open and generalized... It really was just a "hey, our groups benefit from one another" type thing.


I would a agree a conversation would help... Be it at NAHBS or any place else. This is naturally focused there (NAHBS) but so much more happens outside of the show ahead of time that it also makes sense to toss out an open invite for a couple of groups that share a lot of the same kind of passion to get together...

[crumpton]

actually the problem is they cant decide or stick to the plan which they never really divulged presumably because there never was one or it left the building with the founder. got that off my chest.

regardless we have teken matters into our own shop so stop by booth 826 and see some really fine tubes made in my shop by my pal Austin who is rolling and molding the finest tubes possible.

oh, and some nice wheels hand assembled with US made rims and hubs.

I dunno if it was truth or rumour but isnt that the same USA based carbon tube supplier who dont want to deal with the little guy?

[Mike Mcdermid]

regardless we have teken matters into our own shop .

Awesome