Could anyone spare some time to answer a few questions?

[Mark Kelly]

The debate over what is or isn't art has been around forever. I think people can still keep it up because there isn't really a answer for it.

My favourite is that art is a conscious attempt to deny the meaninglessness of existence.

Bicycle frames aren't.

[s_curran]

I dont really feel like I should throw my hat in the ring here, but I am going to anyways. I've been thinking about this thread all day since I read it, here's where i'm at now:

I have found people use the word "art" to justify the price of handmade items. The craftsman can make a "tool" so well, that people who are meant to use it, do not understand what is so great about it, can't explain it atleast. That doesn't make it less good, or not worth the money, it just is that good. Art has a sort of magical feel, most people don't expect to always understand it, but its really a feeling that most get from the art, maybe people mix up the feeling they get from art from the feeling they get from quality craftsmanship.

Now, I also think there is no rigid line between what isn't and is art. But I hope people start to look at quality hand made objects, such as the finest bikes in the world and buy them for the idea of them being the best tools that are made, and stop trying to call it art to justify it.

[e-RICHIE]

Regarding this never ending conversation about art, craft, tools, objects, and intent - you can make a bicycle beautiful, and many of us try to do just that. But without an underlying foundation that includes design and fab experience, I am not sure what the point is. To write it another way, if you're called to make it as an aesthetic exercise and lack skills to make the unit fit well and do what it's supposed to, it's just metal (or CF as the case may be). The more time passes, the more I'm committed to that point of view. The craft and embellishments should be (can be) added to the the assembly, but aren't the driver atmo.

[edoz]

Good morning Simon, and welcome. Since you posed the dissertation, I am not sure if the question has been asked of you. What makes you (or anyone, for that matter) think there's a resurgence? According to my opinion, just because media now focuses on what some of us do, that doesn't mean there's a place here that was never here before, or that it's bigger OR smaller. I happen to think it's gobs smaller than ever, but that's another thread. Framebuilding as an endeavor has landed on the desks of internet scribes, bloggers, and all sorts of folks who don't really go that far back to have a sense of the trade. My observation is that most get their facts and write stories based on Google searches. The result is that one story begets two more, and the subject matter grows geometrically.

The resurgence isn't in the trade; it's in the amount of lenses folks are looking at it through.

I think in the internet age everything gets it's 15 minutes of fame. The niche or the culture stays roughly the same size, what changes is the number of people who just happen to be looking and posting about it for a bit before moving on to the next big thing.
The old 70s van culture is experiencing the same thing. It's not that more people are buying vintage vans, (because there will always be a diminishing amount of them) but the internet happens to have stumbled upon it recently and since it's new to them, it's a resurgence. When the internet loses interest, it'll be a 'fad that died'.
(That's just my $.02, probably worth less due to inflation and the weakening power of the dollar abroad.)

[Mike Mcdermid]

Its a bit like hammers...not just any ordinary hammers ,these are the hand made ones the queen of Englands farriers use to shod the queens horses........they cost lots they get cnc machined on a 4/5 axis machining centre but then get made to look like crap with a file,put in a velour lined box with a number stamped into them , the guy who makes them says they are art because no two are the same

now im no farrier though i do know its a dying art trade skill.......but how hard is it to knock a nail in

[bencooper]

now im no farrier though i do know its a dying art trade skill.......but how hard is it to knock a nail in

You try hammering straight while a horse is trying to kick you in the head

I think some of the confusion and contradiction comes because people sometimes think that something can't be beautiful unless it's art. That's not true. Completely functional things can be beautiful, even with no artistic or design input. There is beauty in form and function - something like the a Forth Rail Bridge was not built to look beautiful, but it is. There is also beauty in skill, seeing something that has been made with skilled hands.

So handmade bicycle frames can be very beautiful, but they are not art - the intention behind them is different.

[Will Neide]

Art is a discovery and development of elementary principles of nature into beautiful forms suitable for human use.

-Frank Lloyd Wright

[e-RICHIE]

Art is a discovery and development of elementary principles of nature into beautiful forms suitable for human use.

-Frank Lloyd Wright

The elementary principles of sound design and fabrication skills (and experience) supersede
the beautiful (or not) embellishments that make a bicycle art worthy of discovery atmo.
-Frank Lloyd Not Always Wright

[zetroc]

A well-made bicycle is always beautiful, but a beautiful bicycle is not always well-made.

-Steve "I Hope I Can Be Frank" Cortez

[classtimesailer]

A well-made bicycle is always beautiful, but a beautiful bicycle is not always well-made.

-Steve "I Hope I Can Be Frank" Cortez

A nice bike can be a work of art. If a bike is art, I would not ride it on the Saturday morning group ride. The art thing is dispelled and the resurgence thing is hanging by a "Steel is Real" thread. On our large local group rides, there might be a Calfee, a Seven, and my RS. There used to be a Vicious ridden by a guy who went to school with the builder, but I think he is on carbon now. Last week, I got dropped on the windup to the turnaround/sprint and on the return trip, TWO different guys pulled alongside me and said that I did pretty good for riding "that" bike. A new carbon bike is apparently much faster/better.

[Will Neide]

The elementary principles of sound design and fabrication skills (and experience) supersede
the beautiful (or not) embellishments that make a bicycle art worthy of discovery atmo.
-Frank Lloyd Not Always Wright

I'm pretty sure we're not on the same page.

Frank Lloyd built more than just "homes." He built with a philosphy, a design, influence, fluidity. His customers didn't come to him because they wanted just a home. They wanted something more. He gave them more.

You can call your bikes whatever you want or build for whatever reasons you desire, but your idea that "we build tools, machines, etc" falls short of the truth. I don't want to be part of that "we." I'm not part of that "we." There is more.

I personally like your bikes. They are clean, simple, and have good lines. You as the artisan, artist, creator, whatever you want to be called had a vision when you built it of what you think it should be. I like to think you pour your all into every bike you build and create a deeper bond with recipient of your bikes.

I don't for one second think I am JUST building machines, tools, vehicles. Yes, sound prinicples, skills, deisgn criteria are a must, but I think at this point in the conversation we are beyond that.

[Curt Goodrich]

I'
I don't for one second think I am JUST building machines, tools, vehicles. Yes, sound prinicples, skills, deisgn criteria are a must, but I think at this point in the conversation we are beyond that.

I can't speak for Richard but what I think he's saying is that many think they're beyond the basics when in fact they're not. Plenty can wax poetic about influences, put up nice websites, pay for great paint, etc. but in the end one can't bypass the learning curve. If one hasn't put in the time and more importantly built a solid foundation of work then moving onto embellishments is putting the cart before the horse. Unfortunately in the last 10? years individuals have decided when they're on their 5th, 10th, or some frame number less than 50-100 they were ready to go into business selling frames. I've worked with many talented builders. Been trained by some and trained some. What has always been consistent is that everyone travels along the learning curve basically at the same rate. This is true of most skills whether we're talking about building frames, playing an instrument, learning a foreign language, writing or having sex. The more you do it along with varied experiences and a willingness to learn the better you become. Nobody successfully shortcuts this process.

[Will Neide]

I can't speak for Richard but what I think he's saying is that many think they're beyond the basics when in fact they're not. Plenty can wax poetic about influences, put up nice websites, pay for great paint, etc. but in the end one can't bypass the learning curve. If one hasn't put in the time and more importantly built a solid foundation of work then moving onto embellishments is putting the cart before the horse. Unfortunately in the last 10? years individuals have decided when they're on their 5th, 10th, or some frame number less than 50-100 they were ready to go into business selling frames. I've worked with many talented builders. Been trained by some and trained some. What has always been consistent is that everyone travels along the learning curve basically at the same rate. This is true of most skills whether we're talking about building frames, playing an instrument, learning a foreign language, writing or having sex. The more you do it along with varied experiences and a willingness to learn the better you become. Nobody successfully shortcuts this process.

Wholeheartedly agree. But I think that falls more in line with the business aspect of the whole ordeal. How to much to charge, how efficient, past experience, and what quality of work will help drive your business model and dictate your prices. I didn't intend to derail the thread into a philosophical debate of what is and what is not art, BUT I can't agree with the point that we are strictly building machines and tools. Foundry tried (is trying) that sale tactic with their "we build tools not trophies." Balogne.

[Amaro Bikes]

I'm already getting lost in this conversation...

Music is art, the instruments used to play it are not, not even a Guarnerius or any other masterpiece.
Paint, sculptures, are art, a bicycle is a vehicle. When things like the Warhol's M1 happen, the art is about the paint, being the vehicle a platform where to perform, but this does not mean the vehicle in istelf is related with it.

A masterpiece of many disciplines would never become art just because they've been built up to perfection. If a bicycle is art just because of it being perfectly built, same would be for any other possible product, like a car, shoe, watch, boat, kitchen...

Art has become a too easy word to use.

[Will Neide]

No doubt this thread has run its course. Lots of interesting discussion from good people on a topic for which there is no answer. Lot's of it no doubt doesn't answer much of the OP's question though. I've stared at my belly button far too much. Time to get back to work and catch up on CX nats.

[steve garro]

now im no farrier though i do know its a dying art trade skill.......

Not here - I talked to one the other day here, across the street.
Not only is it alive & well, but it pays amazingly good!
- Garro.

[e-RICHIE]

I'm pretty sure we're not on the same page.

Frank Lloyd built more than just "homes." He built with a philosphy, a design, influence, fluidity. His customers didn't come to him because they wanted just a home. They wanted something more. He gave them more.

You can call your bikes whatever you want or build for whatever reasons you desire, but your idea that "we build tools, machines, etc" falls short of the truth. I don't want to be part of that "we." I'm not part of that "we." There is more.

I personally like your bikes. They are clean, simple, and have good lines. You as the artisan, artist, creator, whatever you want to be called had a vision when you built it of what you think it should be. I like to think you pour your all into every bike you build and create a deeper bond with recipient of your bikes.

I don't for one second think I am JUST building machines, tools, vehicles. Yes, sound prinicples, skills, deisgn criteria are a must, but I think at this point in the conversation we are beyond that.

We are saying the same thing. I wouldn't make bicycles that were not also beautiful, or only just functional. Wright wouldn't design a house that was drafty, or fell apart after a generation or two, or had weird transitions between the rooms and hallways. What I am saying is that my observation encompasses that many noobs tackle the exterior first because it's what they and others see. You can be a crackerjack craftsperson and find a way to make a frame with some lovely flourishes. The aisles of NAHBS has had this in spades. But do the overwhelming number of makers in these booths have any experience, or have they done much critical thinking about design (fit, how a bicycle works, etc)? I am reiterating that many start business (as in, take money) BEFORE they have.

I am not JUST building machines, tools, or vehicles either. PS Just so I know where the hash marks are here and who I am discussing what with, how long have you been making frames, or how many have you made? The site link doesn't inform me. Thanks.

[DeeDub76]

The aisles of NAHBS has had this in spades. But do the overwhelming number of makers in these booths have any experience, or have they done much critical thinking about design (fit, how a bicycle works, etc)? I am reiterating that many start business (as in, take money) BEFORE they have.

To be an exhibitor at NAHBS you have to have built at a minimum of 50 bikes and 2 years as a builder. Sheesh I would like to think with that amount of frames under ones belt they would have a good handle on fit, form, and function.

[zetroc]

To be an exhibitor at NAHBS you have to have built at a minimum of 50 bikes and 2 years as a builder. Sheesh I would like to think with that amount of frames under ones belt they would have a good handle on fit, form, and function.

Exhibitors, yes - but the new builder tables are almost a different show altogether.

[e-RICHIE]

To be an exhibitor at NAHBS you have to have built at a minimum of 50 bikes and 2 years as a builder. Sheesh I would like to think with that amount of frames under ones belt they would have a good handle on fit, form, and function.

Exhibitors, yes - but the new builder tables are almost a different show altogether.

NAHBS has booths to sell so it can be profitable. The standards were created so that the net could be cast out the farthest and still have vendors present. I was part of the conversations that created these. But I am replying to these ^ posts not to demean or even question the show. I'm posting because the thread also has been cast out (the art thing, the FLW thing...) and my perspective is that unlike a picture, or sculpture, or a handwoven basket, a house is a serious structure, and a multidimensional one at that. Wright didn't wake up one day and start fulfilling client's dreams. He studied. He worked in industry. He hung out a sign. I don't see that at all in this trade (of ours). The internet, and the bicycle shows, and even message boards have given an electronic voice to many folks who have little to no experience. To bring this back to the OP, I don't think the niche is growing; I think quite the opposite. What hasn't shrunk is the viral activity that surrounds so many folks whose backgrounds at the bench amount to very little time and output.