Could anyone spare some time to answer a few questions?

[Doug Fattic]

Here are some observations about students that take my framebuilding class. I think they represent this community that wants to make stuff for themselves. About half of them have some kind of art background (the next biggest group are engineers). This is hugely disproportionate to the general population. They want to combine practicality with aesthetics. They distain the function only aspect of “its just a tool”. The fact that production can provide them something cheaper or lighter or faster has no appeal to them because that product has no soul. They do want it to replace a car (its got to actually work) but it needs to look really good too. This is something that generally can’t be bought. But more than that they can customize the look to their personality – and it is also unique. Those are really big motivations.

Most of them are realistic about making a business. Many don’t want it to become a business. They aren’t expecting they will learn enough in class. They do recognize that there are others that also have similar values that want something beautiful, unique and well as functional and sense a market if they decide to get it all together to provide it someday. They get genuinely excited when I tell them how they can create and cut a design out of a blank lug. Somebody whose only goal is to get from point A to B wouldn’t care.

[Mike Mcdermid]

About half of them have some kind of art background (the next biggest group are engineers)

the art i can understand on a course learning to do something essentially mechanically biased
the engineers i can't understand needing to go on a course these are the ones that should be analysing almost preceeding their own eduction ,so instead of thinking about it for themselves they take what has been done before and replicate it, not saying theres anything wrong there ...just saying

[DeeDub76]

This has been the best forum read for me since studying Kris Henry's Flickr page to learn how to build a frame jig

I'm on standby waiting to get
to Boulder,

Rock it out at Nats e-Richie!!

[EricKeller]

the engineers i can't understand needing to go on a course these are the ones that should be analysing almost preceeding their own eduction ,so instead of thinking about it for themselves they take what has been done before and replicate it, not saying theres anything wrong there ...just saying

from context, it looks like you are using the right meaning of engineer, not what we in the U.S. call a machinist. Engineers in the U.S. don't really have the background to make a bike frame, they might be a little better prepared to learn how to build one. But when I was a bike mechanic, I always got a kick out of it when an engineer told me they could fix their bike or build a wheel because they were an engineer. How to build a wheel the engineering way: the spokes should all be at the same tension, the end.

[MarkC]

Beautiful tools can be considered as art. That is a kind and favorable consideration. No reason the framebuilder and client can't have both.

[Curt Goodrich]

Navel gazing?

[suzyj]

from context, it looks like you are using the right meaning of engineer, not what we in the U.S. call a machinist. Engineers in the U.S. don't really have the background to make a bike frame, they might be a little better prepared to learn how to build one. But when I was a bike mechanic, I always got a kick out of it when an engineer told me they could fix their bike or build a wheel because they were an engineer. How to build a wheel the engineering way: the spokes should all be at the same tension, the end.

FWIW I'm an engineer. Not as in certified Cisco engineer, or "I'll change the oil in your car" engineer, but the old fashioned many years at uni plus time on the tools way into engineering. IME engineers like me are roughly divided into two groups, those who have no practical experience and no desire to get any, and those who can't get enough. It's really not useful to generalise.

[Dancingbear]

But we are making tools. Vehicles. Machines. Not art, or pot holders, or coffee mugs.

I've heard/read this sentiment quite a few times, and I have to say that I respectfully disagree. I don't have the time at the moment to throw my thoughts out, but I want to voice my dissent with this opinion.

We live in a world that is not black and white, but includes all the shades between. I'll agree that most framebuilder's products are not purely "art", but if there were no "art" aspects to framebuilding I would never have built the ones I have. I'd be perfectly content with some cookie cutter corporate manufactured bike, as dollar for dollar it would likely be the best value. There are lots of very good ones out there. But when I acquire a tool, vehicle, or machine in my life, I often consider more than just cost and function. Design, including design decisions that are only aesthetic, influence one's experience using said tool, vehicle, or machine, and add value that goes beyond what is required for a strictly utilitarian interpretation of a tool, vehicle, or machine. With all due respect,(and believe me my respect is sincere) you know better than to believe that your customers are buying a Sachs because it is just a tool, a vehicle, and a machine.

[mikmcconnell]

Here's my cursory take on the economics of it. Bikes - Road Bikes in particular - seem to have become what economists refer to as luxury goods / status goods / or veblen goods. (all prices NZD). This is just theoretical - you'd need more data to check it - but it's my theory and I'm sticking to it until I hear a better one.

Strangely, as scale increases and production methods become cheaper, bikes themselves - road bikes in particular - are becoming more expensive. To take an example, the most expensive bike model made by Trek has jumped from $4,729 in 2003 to $9,129 in 2008 to $12,389 today. That’s $6,000 more than inflation would suggest.

The same has happened for wheels. In 2005, a pair of Carbon wheels made by Zipp cost $1,750. Today they’re $2,400. That’s $320 more than inflation would suggest.

This is to say, in an industry with rampant competition which is putting people out of business on the high street, prices are still rising. When was the last time the price of a computer went up? A television? Those are both technologies that are better, and cheaper, than they were 5 or 10 years ago and where prices have fallen (as you would expect).

Bikes, which are not undergoing the same quantum leaps in performance as are computers or even televisions, are bucking that trend. In economic terms it would seem that the bike market, particularly the road bike market, is taking on the characteristics of the luxury goods market. At its extreme, this means that some of the superbikes and their associated accessories are what are called Veblen goods - goods where demand for them rises as their price rises.

It is this very market characteristic - where a carbon fibre bicycle frame made up of $100 of Carbon fibre can sell for $USD10,000 - that allows the handmade market to flourish. After all, why would you buy something off the rack when you can get something bespoke for the same price?

Over the same period where prices in the market have exploded, so has the handmade market. The handmade market needs these high prices in order to be profitable - it’s far more expensive to handbuild a one off bicycle with skilled labour in a high wage economy than it is to build it in at scale in a factory environment in a low wage economy.

This isn’t to say that the factory built bikes are low quality, rather that there’s less relationship between what it costs to build them and what they sell for.

Into this gap - the gap between cost and price - steps the bespoke bike building market.

The market is exemplified by the North American Handmade Bicycle Show which started in 2005 with 23 exhibitors and 700 attendees and in 2013 registered 199 exhibitors and 6,200 attendees. Using NAHBS numbers as the benchmark, growth in the bespoke cycling market closely follows the growth in prices of high end road bikes. The more the major manufacturers increase their margins by increasing price, the more space they make for custom manufacturers who have higher cost structures than the large scale factory manufacturers.

[Tyler Evans]

Woah. ^^^ you smaht.

[gggross]

Your basic assumption is that the hand made custom bike market is growing. Not really sure that it is. Around me, I'm the only guy with a custom hand made bike. But maybe it is growing I don't know.

Have to agree with the above. I think there are only a handful of us in my neck of the woods with custome bikes. Most folks that I know that ride just don't get the custom thing. They are perfectly happy with their expensive whatever - nothing wrong with that. I like knowing that I have something special.

[sk_tle]

ATMO Art is not the end result. Art comes from the state of mind you are when doing it, the reasons and the way you do it and how it is considered by the public. Between two identical objects, one can be considered an art form and the other just a basic mass produced tool. So if the builder is not considering it is art. It isn't. If he does it in an artist state of mind it is.

[Doug Fattic]

the art i can understand on a course learning to do something essentially mechanically biased the engineers i can't understand needing to go on a course these are the ones that should be analysing almost preceeding their own eduction, so instead of thinking about it for themselves they take what has been done before and replicate it, not saying there is anything wrong there ...just saying

Thanks for giving me a chance to say why taking a framebuilding class makes sense! Putting a frame together involves both knowledge and skill. The knowledge part can come from everywhere including applying the principles one has learned in school. However the fastest road to success is to copy what successful framebuilders do. They are past the trial and error stage. And it is very convenient if all this information is located in one class.

The skill part of brazing (and filing) has to be learned by personal experience. The fastest quickest way to do this is by taking a class with an experienced instructor. After explaining general brazing principles (including best equipment and materials) they can demonstrate the specific motions that best work for each joint. In addition they know rookie mistakes and how to avoid them. There can be plenty of anxiety when one is playing with fire and trying not to burn up expensive materials. Having a coach guiding your moves and keeping you from making mistakes reduces the frustration, greatly shortens the learning curve and increases satisfaction.

Most skilled professionals in music or sports or almost any endeavor still hire coaches to improve their abilities. Getting personal instruction is how they get better than their competition. And it’s not rocket science logic that the better and more experienced the instruction the better the results.

[Vlad Luskin]

+1 but where's the ATMO?

Because it's the truth, not an opinion.

:-)

[RylandWB]

The debate over what is or isn't art has been around forever. I think people can still keep it up because there isn't really a answer for it. For fun I decided to learn a little bit more about that word, though:
art (n.)
early 13c., "skill as a result of learning or practice," from Old French art (10c.), from Latin artem (nominative ars) "work of art; practical skill; a business, craft," from PIE *ar-ti- (cf. Sanskrit rtih "manner, mode;" Greek arti "just," artios "complete, suitable," artizein "to prepare;" Latin artus "joint;" Armenian arnam "make;" German art "manner, mode"), from root *ar- "fit together, join" (see arm (n.1)).

Now, a handful of that etymology sounds pretty lined up with just about every framebuilder I have ever met or read from, including those from bygone eras.
Opinion: If bicycles were not art we would all have single color powdercoats.

P.S. This thread is great.

[mikmcconnell]

Grayson Perry was reasonably coherent in the Reith Lectures on what is art, particularly as it relates to contemporary art and the border with "craft" (he himself is a potter which often is relegated to craft as opposed to art).

One of the tests he uses is a test of intent - ie. does the maker act with artistic intent.

He's much more fluid on it than I am.

BBC Radio 4 - The Reith Lectures, Grayson Perry: Playing to the Gallery: 2013, Beating the Bounds

[RylandWB]

Post-modernism really messed this whole thing up.

[bencooper]

Opinion: If bicycles were not art we would all have single color powdercoats.

I do

I have artistic flourishes on my frames - details I put in because I like them, not for engineering reasons. But that doesn't make them art - bicycles are built to carry people, art is made to move people.

[EricKeller]

that's not a single color powder coat, it's monochromatic painting. "Monochromatic painting has been an important component of avant-garde visual art throughout the 20th century and into the 21st century." LINK

[Eric Estlund]

Steve Shand and I shared a little bit on this topic at Bespoked in 2012. I'm sure both of our opinions and reflections have changed a bit in that time, but it might be interesting.