Headache Design (Tig guy doing lugs content)

[18bikes]

I'm really scratching my head on this on but hopefully someone with more lug experience can put me straight and point out the (hopefully) obvious mistake I've made here.

We've been approached to build track frames for another shop, nothing complicated but we're starting with one to make sure we can do what they want. Ideally they would like the geometry of a frame they had built in Japan, they don't have a drawing so I had to measure the frame (I wasn't able to put it in the jig and back calculate from there). The second complication is that they have already purchased lugs and had them engraved so would really like to use them. The lugs are 102 series long point stainless from ceeway and the bb shell is an LB200. The pic is the a duplicate of the existing frame. The angles are nothing like what is quoted on ceeway's site so I started doing a bit of tweaking to see how close we can get using these lugs but I just can't make it work, especially as I've measured the bb lug as being 57 and 64 degrees instead of 61.2 and 63.3 degrees.

I've already told them that getting the exact geometry isn't going to be possible with these lugs but it seems to me that I'm not going to get remotely close.

I think I've been staring at it too long now and all the numbers are just rattling round in my head so it's over to you, what has my tiny mind missed?

Thanks,
MattJamesLangton.png

[bencooper]

I'm too tired and full of beer to comment on the exact frame design - but I will say that you should be very, very careful building frames for other businesses. I've been stung badly that way. The problem is that it's another stage between you and the customer.

For example, one I built was for a business who was initially going to set up to built frames with a US brand of stainless tubing and stainless lugs. I agreed to build a frame for their customer. Then they couldn't get the tubing, so I was asked to use non-stainless Zona. Then I was told that the customer wanted the exact same geometry as a Cannondale frame. I advised that this was not possible with lugs, but could be done fillet-brazed. Was told that would be okay, so I built the frame.

After the frame was delivered, turned out the customer was (not unreasonably) expecting a stainless lugged frame not a fillet-brazed frame that needed paint, so he rejected it. Ended up costing me a lot of time and money.

[18bikes]

I've already had this dilemma with myself, but they will be wanting batches of set size frames so it's more like a small production run than anything custom. This is why we are doing 1 to start with to iron any problems out and check that both parties are happy with the result. Then I will be getting them to sign orders with the designs attached so they know exactly what's coming

[Rody]

Matt,

If I'm understanding correctly, you are able to build the lugged track frame with the requested angles, just not with the lugs provided by the shop.

I understand you desire to help your customer use the personalized lugs they've already purchased, but honestly, the fact that they spent money on materials that are not appropriate for the requested work is not your responsibility. However, if you attempt to tweak them knowing it is outside the acceptable range, they than become your liability.

I would select the appropriate materials to meet the requested design specs and give them a contracted price for this design.

Have them keep the personalized lugs for a project that is more inline with their build parameters.

Please remember when contract building that you are now dealing with two customers and the complications that come with that; protect yourself with a well detailed and written contract for the product produced and clearly communicate the limits of your liability and warranty extended to the final user. Any design elements that vary during the process MUST be acknowledged with a change of work order and signed off by both parties.

cheers,

rody

[Mark Kelly]

protect yourself with a well detailed and written contract for the product produced and clearly communicate the limits of your liability and warranty extended to the final user. Any design elements that vary during the process MUST be acknowledged with a change of work order and signed off by both parties.

+1

I have done a lot of contract work in a field where there the standard for quality is largely subjective (wine). It is absolutely imperative to have a clear agreement on the scope and limits of what you are providing. The more detailed the better - a few hours spent on this now will save you at least as many hours of headaches later. It must include the ability for you to refuse to use materials provided if they do not meet your quality standards.

Also and slightly OT: file note all conversations as soon as they occur - a good way of doing this is to send an email confirming what was said. We call it "evidence mail" for a reason.

[devlin]

I think you'll find all of the experienced builders here will tell you to let the design drive the material list. Not the other way round. They want a particular style/geometry then they have to realise that the lugs they are providing are not fit for purpose.

As said above. Keep a track of conversations and make sure all parties agree in writing to the way forward and any changes to the path chosen.

[18bikes]

Thanks guys, you've confirmed exactly what I was thinking; we can't make what he wants the way he wants it and starting a large project with that in mind has the potential to go really wrong.

Might have to pass on it as another member already has, suggesting me as an alternative, nice eh? So, who can I suggest to him now?

Thanks,
Matt

[bencooper]

Aha, I think I know who this is now ;-)

Pass them my way if you like...