On Branding atmo -

[Curt Goodrich]

In framebuilding, there are no secrets. Only insecurities. If a person has built less than a couple hundred frames there's no story to tell/brand.

[fortyfour]

@Mark Kelly: "The Dept. of Raw Power" has dually noted your correction. Thanks for the kind words on the work. Apparently my latin is not as honed as I'd like it to be :) But I do sincerely appreciate the correction.

Back on topic to directly address Mike Mcdermid's comments: I think to be successful in any business you first need the underpinnings of some sort of cohesive story. The story is reflected in your mark or logo. That logo represents your ethos. Then you need a plan and that can be something as formal as a written business plan or a loose set of objectives and goals - but keep in mind, that those goals can be ever evolving as you grow providing you with flexibility to progress. Those 3 pieces formulate the foundation of your business. The product is built on all of these factors and the story helps to inject the necessary "DNA" that starts to build upon a cohesive, functional and visual product offering. Having that story and understanding it, helps to guide you moving forward. Ideally, your skills of the craft are honed so by the time you are offering your products (bicycles) to paying customers, the product speaks for itself.

Now part of that potentially successful business has a tool chest of marketing pieces: Your logo on a business card with your contact info. A website to showcase your wares that allows customers to learn more about you, how to contact you and be informed about your product. Personally, I think there now needs to be some sort of "dynamic" content where a building fan base can see what you're up to on an occasional basis. Whether that's a blog, a flickr account that helps to build upon your work that acts much like a portfolio, a facebook page, Tumblr, etc. Whatever you choose, you need to commit to it because you want to do it well and you enjoy it. If you don't and don't see the value, then leave it alone and be satisfied with your decision. But having something that potential customers can aspire to and view, I think helps to share that story. Getting out and talking with like minded people and connecting with your customer is just a must do with any business. You not only need to network with fellow business colleagues, but in a way you need to build your own network of clients, customers and ones who aspire to be a customer and some of those may never actually be a customer, but because of their experience, may actually recommend you to someone else.

What I can't stress enough though is when you are running a business and you've got your logo, business card and website up, make damned sure that when someone visits any or all of them, they are viewing one cohesive visual thread. The logo relates to the business, the website embodies that business's back story, the blog, flickr, tumblr all or none builds on that thread and that business card I just handed you? That's just a little piece of what you're about to discover when you visit the website I just spoke of. The product speaks for itself and embodies the whole.

And all of the above is an ideal. It rarely happens in this way and most likely is done piecemeal along the life span of the business.

Contrary to some, I believe creativity is actually a skill that can be fostered, grown and taught. I think some have a natural knack for it, like some have a knack for mathematics or chemistry. There is a methodology for fostering creativity but it starts with the pupil having a genuine interest. The act of constantly doing and making builds upon itself and helps to churn up new ideas. You will make mistakes but accept them as they can lead to discoveries, new ideas and methods.

Regarding sharing of information and knowledge: I think it's important to help to bring the aptitude of all to a level of competence. Like any trade, there are a basic set of skills that need to be honed and eventually mastered. By bringing that relative competence of a group to a higher standard, we can help to avoid creating a bad experience for customers and creating unsafe practices. But if you have knowledge and skill that is proprietary to your process which helps make your product unique and exemplary, no one is stating to give that information away (nor should you as you most likely invested a lot of time developing that skill or technology). The basics of sound craft form a foundation of skill sets which help to build safe structures (bicycles).

[Amaro Bikes]

To share or not to share... I think we can also approach the question with same perspective as branding, as persons. In life you can find people who will always be ready to help you in and incredibly generous way, others will do the opposite, in a selfish and interested way. You can even find people who will harm you on purpose, etc, etc. Then, when talking about a skill, about knowledge, wih is also a way of earning your food, many different thoughts might happen, and again will depend on the person behind.

In my opinion knowledge should always be shared for too many different reasons:
-How couldn't I share with others if I learnt from what others had shared with me?
-The first one who can actually learn and receive great things from that sharing is the one who gives it away, as it sometimes allows to get a feedback or even a different approach from the receiver, wich might have an absolutely fresh and open mind ready to rethink all what you might have left fixed after many years of repetitions. Learning is a process that never ends and not always comes from the most experienced, but from virgin minds with unrestricted open minds.
-As I absolutely believe two builders with the same knowledge will never build the same kind of bikes because they're two different persons/minds, do not worry about other people learning to do what you know to do, as this does not necessarily men they will do what you do, it's only they will have the knowledge of the "technical" process, for example, it's something similar to give someone all the files/saw/torch you have on your workshop, they have the tools, ok, that this mean they're able to do what you do? Absolutely not. In this case, the tools are the knowledge, and then there's much more, all the intangible process where the builder transfer their mind into the product, or brand, or whatever you want to call it. Dario is a great sample on that, sure he's a gifted master on the building procedure, but all that would have not be as desired if it was not paired with such unique personality wich is reflected in his work. Same happens with most of the long lasting masters as Richard, Tiziano, etc. I could ask them a million times about how do they weld this or that, how do they consider geometries, how do they decide tube sizes, etc, but will never be able to be them, and in fact this would be the worst mistake any learning builder might make, trying to be another, first of all, you'll never be anyone else than you, and second, this another already exists, and it probably takes you too many years of advantage being so.

Finally, and probably it might be a completely different discussion, I just wanted to drop a thought after reading in some posts about "educated customers" and I can't help thinking I do not completely agree with it. Of course most of the bespoked bicycle customers are really educated on cycling and they do a thoughtful choice, but as it happens with many other bespoked products or luxury-handbuilt, etc, many of them do not have any intention to know about it, they just want the name, or what that name represents, so do not hesitate allowing the thought you could actually give a non-masterly-built bike to a non educated "new-rich-minded" customer that if it has the right decals on the tubes will not even doubt to assure how masterly built it's. And I can just think of wine industry and how many "experts" with noses for the thousand prized bottles. And of course I'm not saying most bespoked customers are those snobbery people, just pointing out that not all of them are the educated customer a framebuilder loves to build a bike for

thanks !!!

[e-RICHIE]

<cut> Finally, and probably it might be a completely different discussion, I just wanted to drop a thought after reading in some posts about "educated customers" and I can't help thinking I do not completely agree with it. Of course most of the bespoked bicycle customers are really educated on cycling and they do a thoughtful choice, but as it happens with many other bespoked products or luxury-handbuilt, etc, many of them do not have any intention to know about it, they just want the name, or what that name represents, so do not hesitate allowing the thought you could actually give a non-masterly-built bike to a non educated "new-rich-minded" customer that if it has the right decals on the tubes will not even doubt to assure how masterly built it's. And I can just think of wine industry and how many "experts" with noses for the thousand prized bottles. And of course I'm not saying most bespoked customers are those snobbery people, just pointing out that not all of them are the educated customer a framebuilder loves to build a bike for

This ^ atmo.
You really have to make the bicycle (or the wine, or the violin, or - dare I even add, the opinion) for
yourself and not the client. Once it's finished and on the road, it's just another commodity with a label.
Lather, rinse, repeat.

[steve garro]

Rather than quote a few posts from this thread let this comment address some of what you've read or rather heard in this thread regarding helping and competition.

A 10 year run for me thus far, I guess I scored pretty early with some unique stuff. Rough early on but still unique. I gave a lot of help early on as well. My thought that was as long as I was out there doing my process in such a unique fashion, I needed to see others following similarly to, shall we say, legitimize what was an odd way of building a carbon bike at the time. I'm not sorry I did some of that but I don't do much anymore.

I have been told by a few making a go and some who have since done well that I was an inspiration and a huge help. Now they pretty much all sell against me. Do not kid yourself if you think your "peers" won't sell against you. They will. And they need to. And that's just ok with me. At first I was a bit flustered by that realization, almost set out reactionary about it. In other words, start selling against the competition. But I haven't really done that. Ask anyone who has inquired with me what is said when they ask about the other guys or why choose me over them. Instead it has caused me to bolster that "brand" which I spoke of, my work. Thats it. No reaction with some trend, gadget, fancy paint, or marketing exploit. But rather continuing to evolve in pursuit of doing that much better every time.

Now my best marketing tool is my work. I use to be shy about it but now I am not. I am happy to put it in anyones face(politely) and am proud of it. So you see, this is emotional stuff for which there is no manuel or class.

Again, my brand, my work.

You nailed it 100% Nick.
Thanks.
- Garro.

[Amaro Bikes]

This ^ atmo.
You really have to make the bicycle (or the wine, or the violin, or - dare I even add, the opinion) for
yourself and not the client.

Absolutely no doubt about it, and this inf act takes it back to the original question on branding and being loyal to yourself, not trying to fit into what you consider others will like.

I just wanted to point out not all bespoked customers do necessarily select a "brand" through an educated choice, but a labeled one.

Anyway, I feel like a caterpillar taking part on a butterflies dance, I would better keep eating green leaves before dreaming any flying moves

[MarkC]

Mike - custom TT and Tri bikes by someone that can talk aero and fitting and then provide a proper solution to optimize for both. I don't know anybody approaching that niche and the big box bikes don't offer enough solutions. Is it profitable? Dunno but TT and Tri geeks often have money to spend. Aero road frames are a natural off shoot of this and a separate product line. Just a thought since you seemed to be thinking about such things. If not, discard...

[ron l edmiston]

This ^ atmo.
You really have to make the bicycle (or the wine, or the violin, or - dare I even add, the opinion) for
yourself and not the client. Once it's finished and on the road, it's just another commodity with a label.
Lather, rinse, repeat.

agree,
but the client must always perceive a/the "brand with a/the added value..," or the builder, blender, violin maker or ---- can only expect a "commodity price point.."

ronnie

[edoz]

@David: Back on topic of "Branding" - From the design side of things, this is actually what my specialty was/is and what I have aided many brands very small and very large. From designing brand platforms for start ups, redesigning the face of existing company's appearances, product, et all or refining others and giving them the necessary tools to market and promote themselves. I've seen first hand how a really well thought out brand platform and a plan for taking that business to the next level can work.

Do you ever aid other framebuilders?

[fortyfour]

Do you ever aid other framebuilders?

Yes. Below are two builders that come to mind. Some others off the top of my head: I've recently finished the branding for the New England Builders Ball and am finishing the event poster now. I've also done the Oregon Handmade Bicycle Show's logo and all posters to date. Also have done various work for shops and events in North Carolina of all places. Not all of my design work is posted online however.

[Mark Kelly]

Without giving away any commercial confidences, what does that sort of thing involve (and cost)?

For the purposes of argument*, assume someone comes to you with a product line, a name and a backstory and some idea of a graphics direction, what's involved in tweaking this to develop a brand platform?

BTW thanks for taking my nitpicking yesterday in such good heart. I try to suppress my inner proofreader but it doesn't always work.

* in the philosphical sense, not the lay sense of "dispute".

[Mark Kelly]

This ^ atmo.
You really have to make the bicycle (or the wine, or the violin, or - dare I even add, the opinion) for
yourself and not the client. Once it's finished and on the road, it's just another commodity with a label.
Lather, rinse, repeat.

Or for itself.

I've made a few bad wines, a lot of good ones and a couple of great ones*. For the great ones, the process is simple: pick the grapes at the right time and then do what they tell you to.

Maybe I'm romanticising a bit, but I imagine making a violin is similar: get the right bits of wood and listen to what they want (in this case literally). Is there a parallel with bicycles?

* Yes I know that sounds arrogant but as my son said the other day, "only a fool doesn't know what he's good at".

[e-RICHIE]

Or for itself.

I've made a few bad wines, a lot of good ones and a couple of great ones*. For the great ones, the process is simple: pick the grapes at the right time and then do what they tell you to.

Maybe I'm romanticising a bit, but I imagine making a violin is similar: get the right bits of wood and listen to what they want (in this case literally). Is there a parallel with bicycles?

* Yes I know that sounds arrogant but as my son said the other day, "only a fool doesn't know what he's good at".

For me - it's the same thing atmo.

The issue will always be that there are no real standards to measure excellence. So, you have to do the work for yourself (or, for its own sake). Lord knows, nothing we do will improve the experience that much (that much being in air quotes) compared to what others can do. And I don't say this to dumb anyone or anything down.

[blasdelf]

The Rapha liaison is a tool. Synergy. It's up to you (the effbuilder) to put a value on it and make the investment work.

what is this, the 90s?


the kids these days call it a "collabo"

[blasdelf]

what surprises me is how dismissive some of the responses have been to the concept of brand building.
guys, branding works.
if done correctly, it can help build and grow businesses and categories.

yes, but the second you utter the word in public, you lose

[Curt Goodrich]

For the sake of clarity, I am not dismissing branding. I see it has a necessary tool and a powerful one at that. What I want to interject into this very good conversation is that I strongly feel there's an order of operation here that gets overshadowed. Before branding there should be competence. I know I'm a wet blanket about this but how often have we seen websites and logos before an individual has finished their two week framebuiding class? Of individuals with queues asking very basic construction questions here or elsewhere? How many times do we see gorgeous photos of mediocre work? Whether it's lugs that never see the business end of a file, cold welds, undercut fillets, lumpy layups, or dubious designs? Put your time in at the bench first then start to brand. After that branding and building ideally operate together.

[e-RICHIE]

For the sake of clarity, I am not dismissing branding. I see it has a necessary tool and a powerful one at that. What I want to interject into this very good conversation is that I strongly feel there's an order of operation here that gets overshadowed. Before branding there should be competence. I know I'm a wet blanket about this but how often have we seen websites and logos before an individual has finished their two week framebuiding class? Of individuals with queues asking very basic construction questions here or elsewhere? How many times do we see gorgeous photos of mediocre work? Whether it's lugs that never see the business end of a file, cold welds, undercut fillets, lumpy layups, or dubious designs? Put your time in at the bench first then start to brand. After that branding and building ideally operate together.

Yes - I would agree 100 percent with CPG atmo. My use of the B word in the subject header may be misleading. But we are in a world now when anyone with a connection can be his own broadcast network, and those on the receiving end can't be blamed for not having proper filters in place. It's not always easy to do your own best work, talk about it, and also not condescend to others whose experiences pale in contrast. As mentioned before, the traditional avenues of entering this here trade no longer exist. That in itself should send up all sorts of warning signs wrt the possibilities of eking out a career. But for those who accept the challenge in spite of the odds, it's probably better that we speak our minds even when not asked rather than watch as some of the next in line flounder. Tough love, and all that.

Back to an original point - all of this is who we are whether we accept what follows us or not. Branding (in the conventional sense) might help one person with one product line. If each of us shares stories and opinions, strong or otherwise, the odds are greater that more than one will benefit. I am aware that some of this borders on sounding like FM radio, but there ya' have it.

[crumpton]

Was that "helping" or providing a service? I'm not sure designing logos was what edoz meant. Although I could be wrong. Great work at any rate.

I to have sold services to "help" others. I have sold/shared parts for carbon building. And others share with me.

I think we all share or are willing to sell to the competition but i think the spirit of sharing in the context of the thread was meant more like giving away your knowledge of skill, technique, that sort of thing. yeah? Do you do any of that kind of helping?

Yes. Below are two builders that come to mind. Some others off the top of my head: I've recently finished the branding for the New England Builders Ball and am finishing the event poster now. I've also done the Oregon Handmade Bicycle Show's logo and all posters to date. Also have done various work for shops and events in North Carolina of all places. Not all of my design work is posted online however.

[Amaro Bikes]

Before branding there should be competence.

Of course, I don't think anyone will disagree. But even in such case, "branding" a bad product will be a problem for the builder, for example, with the great pictures of bad work as you said, those pictures will make very visible to an educated eye/customer how bad product is that, and go elsewhere to find a good product. So, let's anyone do whatever they want, even if it's "wrong" as it happens in real life, you can say you're incredibly good at something, speak loud about how fast you're on the bike, fantasy with how many supermodels you have been with, adventures in the jungle, survival skills, Bach's ciaccona player... it might happen some people will believe you, but in the end reality will rise, sooner than later, and you'll get to the place you deserve, or even worst, as you've been "selling" a too high fantasy, falling will hurt.

I think branding is not really something you should plan, but something it will happen as a consecuence of your work and the person behind it.

[steve garro]

.

The issue will always be that there are no real standards to measure excellence.

Well for me client staifaction ranks 1st with mine a 2nd.
Although I guess if it doesn't satisfy me they don't get it.
- Garro.