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    Default Tig Steel from zero

    Hi all.

    When I begun with the framebuilding learning process, I found that was not that easy to find documentation on how to Tig weld steel frames, being most of it related with steel/oxy-acetylene or titanium/tig.

    So, even if I'm for sure not the best to teach anything, at least I hope this small "manual" would be helpful to anyone who's interested in knowing about Tig welded steel frames, wich should not be too different to fillet brazing, for example, but there're always small details...

    Trying to be as detailed as possible, it will take quite long so most likely I'll have to do it by chapters, will try my best not to take too long time between them ;)

    I'll just get into the actual process, going over the frame design as I think this is another chapter wich is pretty well documented in mahy other posts/places/books and not necessarily specific to TIG process.

    So, here we go with Chapter I: [Preparing/Mitering Seat tube vs BB shell]
    -First of all, (and assuming BB shell is already faced) we need to "scratch" or mark the two centerlines of the tube (I prefer scratching as will not fade away after some work on the tubes). This is big key as will allows as to check phasing and proper alignment and also will be a good help for placing braze-ons. First you mark one line, for example I do it by resting the tube on the alignment table and then sliding the marker all the way top-bottom. Once this first reference centerline is marked, you've to locate it's opposite, to do so I made small plastic square papers measuring half the circunference of the tube, one for each diameter of tube I use (28,6-31,7-35-38-42). So, you place this paper aligned with the already marked centerline and then mark the opposite centerline. They should be at same distance one each other (damn, I'm pretty bad explaining things!). And you should also mark a centerline on the BB Shell, this is much easier as you just need to find out the center (normally 34mm) and do a full circle around, again, I use the alignment table for so, resting the bb shell on the table and locating the marker at 34mm height.
    Here is a picture of one of the tube centerlines:
    1centerlines.jpg

    Once centerlines are done, it's time to place the tube on the vise for some saw/file action. Using a nice tube block makes a difference and I say this because I've used some v-blocks and when you tight the vise, then the round shape of the tube will ovalize, so when you're checking miter tightness during the process, this will not be accurate, as once you relief the tube from the vise, it's shape will be different to the one you checked on the vise... does it make any sense? I hope so... Anyway, having a nice and proper tube block will be helpful so you can tight properly the tube on the vise without any loss on the round shape. It will look something like that:
    2tube.jpg

    So, after a couple of saw cuts and some insistence with the file, you'll begin having the fishmouth shape you're looking for, something like:
    3miter.jpg

    To know when you should end this process, you need to check the join is in phase and square. To know if it's in phase you just need to check that both centerlines on the tube are matching the centerline of the BB Shell, at both sides! First times will be kind of try and go, but after some practice it's pretty straight forward and easy to manage. Here is a picture of one of the sides with centerlines aligned (the other side should be at the very same situation):
    4phase.jpg

    The other part on the deal, is to check BB and ST are in good angle, this case is 90º, so just need a precision square so to check how it looks. Depending on where the line goes you'll need to file one side more than the other, till you reach someting like this:
    5square.jpg

    So, pretty much miter is done for the Seat tube, just need a bit of preparation before tacking. So first of all we sandpaper all the area, both outside and inside, and edges as well, to create the smoothest and cleanest possible scenario (specially important if some paint or oil is inside the tube). Important to keep the centerlines visible enough (do not sandpaper too hard!). Once we've sandpaper all, we can proceed to "broom" the inside of the tube so to take away any metal rest of the saw/file/sandpaper process:
    6broom.jpg

    Now that we have the tube nice and tidy, we clean it with some alcohol and make sure not to touch it from now with bare hands, just some cotton gloves and not letting the tube touch any dirt areas.:
    7clean.jpg

    Now we're ready for some fire! Just time to place the Seat tube and bottom bracket shell on the Jig for tacking. Make sure that Seat tube and BB shell are located according to the centerlines and without any "strange" forces, I mean that both pieces should rest one each other nicely and naturally, if miter is properly done then no gaps or the like would be around, and they'll match easily. If centerlines are phased, then seat tube will be dying straight on the bb shell. All those details will make a huge difference both on welding easiness and future alignment. So, we have all ready for tacking:
    8jig.jpg

    Before getting "hot", good to make sure all the related parts are as clean as possible. So time for cleaning the welding wire (I do use 1mm stainless steel 316L wire), specially if it's been resting for a while (dust ,etc). Also good time for sharpening and cleaning the tugnsten and put a brand new cotton glove cover to use on the left hand (well, the hand you'll use to feed the wire). Here is a picture of the dust cleaned from the wire:
    wire.jpg

    And this will be end of chapter 1 as by the time I get the TIG machine ready, photo camera's baterries went dead :o

    Man, that was a long text for such a small work! :o

    Cheers

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Thanks for doing this. I'm looking forward to reading more.

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Definately love your help here, I'm still learning to tig joints myself, getting better, but not good enough yet to start buying supplies. I'll be keeping a watch on this for sure.

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Awesome work. The only suggestion I have is to rethink your filler rod choice. 316L rod is really only suggested when welding 316 to 316.
    Mike Zanconato
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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Quote Originally Posted by zank View Post
    Awesome work. The only suggestion I have is to rethink your filler rod choice. 316L rod is really only suggested when welding 316 to 316.
    Thanks for pointing this out Zank, my writing mistake... I do use 306L, not 316L. I've also used 309L rod with good result.
    I can't edit the original messagge to avoid wrong advise to anyone...
    Thanks again

    Quote Originally Posted by triathloner View Post
    Definately love your help here, I'm still learning to tig joints myself, getting better, but not good enough yet to start buying supplies. I'll be keeping a watch on this for sure.
    The idea is to keep it as simple as possible, so all process will be by hand tools (saw, files, sandpaper, etc), except the proper Tig welding, sure.

    Anyway, I hope this thread is not considered as some kind of close area and anyone would feel free to point out any detail or maybe their own way to do same things differently or directly show any mistakes on my procedure.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Amaro Bikes; 03-04-2013 at 01:06 PM. Reason: I can't edit the first post for rod filler update :(

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Stupid me (flu and fever are great for that...), I'm actually using 316L, not 306, so will take your advise and go back to 309L

    Sorry about messing all up!

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    It's very interesting, many thanks, but I don't see how you make that with precision (perhaps a pic ?) :
    Quote Originally Posted by Amaro Bikes View Post
    Hi all.

    First you mark one line, for example I do it by resting the tube on the alignment table and then sliding the marker all the way top-bottom.

    Cheers

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Quote Originally Posted by sebaudet View Post
    It's very interesting, many thanks, but I don't see how you make that with precision (perhaps a pic ?) :
    I'll try to take a picture of it, although is difficult with just two hands ;) Anyway, as it's not helped by any mechanism or tool, precision is given by caution. First centerline is pretty easy and precise, just need to hold the tube on the flat surface so it will not move at all. Then you place the marker flat on the flat surface and "slide" it all the way on the tube. Then, you must locate the oposite on the tube, using the paper I made or any other system you prefer, and then you mark that exact point as the starting point of the opposite centerline. Now would be the tricky part to make it precise. So you locate again the tube on the flat surface, and turn it till the point of your marker matches the exact point of the opposite side beginning mark (will involve your face against the flat surface...) and once it's placed, mark the line.

    I don't know if it's a bit clearer now. Might sound as not very precise, but I can tell you if you do it right you'll end up with two straight lines at the very exact opposite of the tube diameter. Obviously you have to triple check and measure them so to be sure otherwise you'll end up doing unphased mitering and that's really bad for alignment

    Cheers

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    sorry for hijacking, but here goes my method:

    First, I roll the tube over a flat surface. I mark the spot with the biggest bend with a sharpie and decide if it will be pointing inwards or outwards the main triangle, but never to left or right.

    Second, I scratch the tube so it crosses the spot from step 1.
    I have an L-shaped aluminum-profile for this. It's dead-on straight and supercheap. It sits like this on the tube: ô
    thus ensuring the markings are in phase.

    tumblr_m2u6741aUq1qbz7lxo1_500.jpg

    Third, I print a crosshair with the right diameter on paper. The circle is actually a little bigger, so I can center the tube on it - If I see only black around the tube, it's centered.
    (there's already a little dirt from usage)

    tumblr_m2u5m3nd7Z1qbz7lxo1_500.jpg

    Fourth step, I take a very fine marker (0.05mm tip is available from Copic) and mark the phases. Even if this looks super simple, I believe this method is acurate to a very high level. I think only a calibrated coordinate measuring machine could compete with this. A lathe maybe, if the builder knows its tolerances.

    tumblr_m2u5v6nAxw1qbz7lxo1_500.jpg

    Last step, I attach my L-profile again to the markings I just made and scratch the tube.
    I now have four markings separated by 90°.

    Of course this is not necessary if you e.g. miter with a machine and use precision tube blocks.

    regards
    Cheap, durable, light: choose two.

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Quote Originally Posted by cfrisia View Post
    sorry for hijacking...
    No sorry at all!! Thanks for sharing your techniques.

    In fact I hope anyone would feel free to give their word about anything, either about different ways of ding same things, or as happened with the rods, suggestions or pointing out things that might be wrong. The idea is trying to make the post as some kind of complete guide to build a steel frame with a tig welding perspective, step by step.

    Cheers

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Quote Originally Posted by cfrisia View Post
    sorry for hijacking...
    No sorry at all!! Thanks for sharing your techniques.

    In fact I hope anyone would feel free to give their word about anything, either about different ways of ding same things, or as happened with the rods, suggestions or pointing out things that might be wrong. The idea is trying to make the post as some kind of complete guide to build a steel frame with a tig welding perspective, step by step.

    Cheers

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaro Bikes View Post
    First centerline is pretty easy and precise
    Take a set of 1/2 blocks on the table & rest the tube on them - draw a line on either side using the blocks as guides.
    Hold the tube down, rotate one block 90*, mark, repeat with the other one.
    - Garro.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
    www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Quote Originally Posted by sebaudet View Post
    It's very interesting, many thanks, but I don't see how you make that with precision (perhaps a pic ?) :
    I think both cfrisia and Steve has explained good ways of finding those centerlines (probably much better than mines), but just in case, here is a couple o pictures of how I've been doing that so far:
    Once a first "random" line is marked, I take the "half-circumference-paper" of the corresponding measure (42mm diameter in this case) and mark the opposite centerline:
    5papel.jpg
    5papel2.jpg
    Then, just locate the tube on the flat surface, tight it and mark with the scraber.
    6linea2.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by steve garro View Post
    Take a set of 1/2 blocks on the table & rest the tube on them - draw a line on either side using the blocks as guides.
    Hold the tube down, rotate one block 90*, mark, repeat with the other one.
    - Garro.
    Steve, this wold be definetly the best way, but all tube blocks I have are not exactly half diameter, so they'll be able to make full "tight" once attached. At least the paragon ones are this way, kind of missing 1mm height in the middle so to catch the tube properly, so the mid lines of the tube blocks are not exactly the middle of the tube, just 1mm "below". Anyway, what they're helpful for is to be used as line to follow with the scraber once you've located the starting points, probably much better and easy than using directly the flat surface as I've shown in the pictures.
    Just for the record, what tube blocks do you actually have? any suggestions?

    Cheers

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Does you have an easy, reliable way of finding the centerline of a bent tube? I've been having issues with keeping s-bent stays in phase with each other. I can get them pretty close, however it's rather time consuming. Just curious if you have any tips.

    Sorry for the hijack, but I'm watching this thread with great interest as I'm now just learning to tig frames.

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Well, here we go with another "chapter".

    But more than chapter II this more likely be chapter 0, why? well, Yesterday I realized I did not show the previous work of checking and tube preparation, wich should be done before any "real" work with the tubes. Also, I'll try to show some things that can make the process a bit easier.

    First of all, we should make sure our tubes are straight. Yes, might sound strange but things are not always as they should... it's pretty uncommon, but you should always be aware and make sure things are perfect or then all the centerlines and the like would be an useless thing as tube will then take it's own decissions (if it's disaligned, then will take this disalignment to the frame). Sometimes, this disalignment is not too big and you can then decide to make the centerline in a specific face of the tube were will not take the disalignment into the frame, for example if tube is disaligned in one way, we can keep this way on the "longitudinal" axis, and leave the lateral alignmend sound. As I'm really bad explaining things, here is a picture of what could happen (It's a pretty extreme case I keep as a "souvenir" from the first time I had this issue, really clarifying):
    1disalign2.jpg

    Ok, once we have checked all out tubes are sound enough, the chainstays/seatstays are symmetric, etc, then we can proceed to mark the butted areas and manufacturer cutting sections, etc, so we know how to place the tube properly and avoid weak points. You can use your own signs, I just draw three lines, a spoted one for the cutting area limit, a long continuous line for the end of "thick" butt and a shorter continuous line for the beginning of thin butted area. Something like that:
    2marcar.jpg

    After all this, we have pretty much our tubes checked and ready for working on them.

    Then, as useful things to have at your workbench, I do keep a set of "dummy" tubes for checking the saw/file process while mitering the tubes, so you can leave quiet and relaxed the actual tubes you'll use on the frame. The dummy tubes you'll need are basically one for each measure of HT and ST you're using on yuor frames, and also a BB shell. In my case that's not too much as I always use 31,7mm seat tube and just two different HT types, 46,3mm OD for semi-integrated and 37mm OD for the standard one. Then I always use same BB shell (sylva 39,1mm OD). So, all in one it's just 4 tubes and the usual dummy axles (120-130-135). Here is the actual set (the 135mm dummy axle is being used at this point in a mtb frame, so not at the picture ;)
    3dummies.jpg

    Also, for all those "dummy" tubes, good to mark clearly centerlines on them, so you'll check all the phasing on the mitering process. HT and ST is pretty easy, you just need one random straight line (longitudinal). And then for the BB you need a cross, one line each direction, so you'll be able to check perfect phase on all situations. Normally would be enough with just the longitudinal one, but the other line can help doing things a bit more accurate. I've marked in this picture the non-longitudinal line, as it's not very visible...
    4bb.jpg

    I think that's pretty much all, but please feel all free to say your own words. I've not gone about heatsinks as this will be later seen once we get welding. And even some old skool guys will not even use them, so can even be considered as "extra" (although I think it's quite a good and recommended extra).

    About Tools, that's what I use (Osrry I did not take pictures, as I've thought of that once writing this new chapter..):
    -Files (1 big half round, 1 big round, 1 medium half round, 1 small half round, 1 small round)
    -Saw (I recommend highest tpi as possible for smoother cut, mine is 24tpi and goes nicely)
    -Sandpaper (1 fine grain and 1 medium grain)
    -Alcohol for cleaning tubes, rod, etc
    -Cotton rags for cleaning tubes, etc
    -Tube blocks (Paragon for 28,6 31,7 35 44 tubes and home made wood ones for 38 and 42 tubes)
    -A radio! you need a good and faithful company...

    Sure, many more things (jig, tig machine, alignment table, etc), but those would need pictures and detailed explanations wich will be better seen further on the process.

    That's all for today, will try to make next chapter as soon as possible, but can't promise anything too fast. I'll try to find some spare times here and there so to do it properly with pictures and so on.

    Cheers

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Same method here,fast and simple.
    -Eric
    Quote Originally Posted by steve garro View Post
    Take a set of 1/2 blocks on the table & rest the tube on them - draw a line on either side using the blocks as guides.
    Hold the tube down, rotate one block 90*, mark, repeat with the other one.
    - Garro.
    Eric S. Zimmerman
    Zimmerman Bicycle works
    and Cinematography
    zimmermancamera@gmail
    check out the work here
    www.ericzimmerman.me

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    hi everyone,

    I am currently building my first bike frame, and I am seeking a little incite. Up until now ive been able to find everything i needed through forums and i thank everyone for their awesome posts (this is actually my first forum post ever). Anyway here are the few questions that i have.

    1. I built a jig out of 80/20. I am wondering how most of you set up your jig. Do you usually set the jig up based on the drawings, then use the jig to check tub miters and lengths as you add the tubes into the jig. Or do you make all your miters and cuts then set the jig up as you add place each tube into it.

    2. Currently im just using a metal stainley tape measure to measure my tube lengths for my miters. This is kinda a pain and i feel like its not very accurate. Maybe a more accurate tape measure would work or some other method in general, any suggestions?

    3. Right now i have my seat tube welding to my bottom bracket. I am hoping this weekend to finish my dt and tt miters and weld those in. I have found some good info on checking for alignment of the overrall frame, sheldon brown string method. Is there a good way to check to alignment of the front triangle, without special tools, even if i can check its alignment is there anything i can really do once its fully welded.

    4. I am planning on welding all my cable routing fixtures and small parts (the brazeons), i dont have an oxy acetylene torch and no means to get one right now. does anyone foresee any big problems with this. I am guessing i want to shy away from the things middle section of the tube..

    Thanks for any input to this questions. And i apologize in advance if something was already answered and i missed it.

    Scott

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