Someone Else's Musings On My Trade atmo -

[e-RICHIE]

If circumventing the union overhead resulted in lowered costs in facilitating the show, and those reduced costs didn't make it less expensive overall for the exhibitors to participate, then this cash was captured as a management fee. It didn't just disappear - follow the money.

No one expects the person conceiving and undertaking the risk in getting this show to actually happen to work for nothing. What other solution might there be other than to cut the unions their vig and increase the fee to exhibitors and/or reduce the management fee?

I am all for a living wage but in the modern world a monopoly on moving crates and running cable inside a facility does not entitle any organization to an exhorbitant return simply because they said so and there ain't nothing you can do about it.

Even without unions setting the fees for working within their halls, the exposition services company that runs everything from the door inward (loading dock, electric, handling boxes, load-out, palette-ing, etc etc, gets to set theirs - and they are not low. I understand what you are saying. If we use a non-union venue then it is because a decision was made to circumvent their price structure. But if the money you don't give them is given (over and over) to FedEx and United Airlines, and Yellow Freight, it would be nice if it balanced out. But it doesn't. It costs more. At non-union halls, the exposition service has the monopoly. I spent a small fortune in Denver with Brede Exposition Services. Actually - it wasn't small. And, I think that they operate with the same strong-handedness as others think that unions employ.

[ChimpMensa]

Agree that it would be ideal to have reduced costs passed along to the builder/exhibitors. They are the ones trying to earn a livelihood off of the merits of their creativity and work.

But what you describe about what the exhibitors pay for, it is 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. Which is also the real world in that if there's some to be had then it's going to get taken. If there no way around those costs then at least be some of that money captured by someone in cycling most would consider as one of our own.

[Too Tall]

Agree that it would be ideal to have reduced costs passed along to the builder/exhibitors. They are the ones trying to earn a livelihood off of the merits of their creativity and work.

But what you describe about what the exhibitors pay for, it is 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. Which is also the real world in that if there's some to be had then it's going to get taken. If there no way around those costs then at least be some of that money captured by someone in cycling most would consider as one of our own.

I don't get this. It is a business, not a charity. I expect NAHBS to pay themselves. That said the show meets customer expectations with a well lit hall, heating, AC, sandwich bars and clean bathrooms all located next to hotels and things to do with your visiting family. That takes expectations into account squeezes it thru a huge manipulation and we arrive at the cost of doing business and your ticket price to watch.

So what? Well, if you think that expectations can be met with a circus tent pitched in the middle of a donated car lot behind a regional airport using volunteer labor I'm listening.

[e-RICHIE]

Agree that it would be ideal to have reduced costs passed along to the builder/exhibitors. They are the ones trying to earn a livelihood off of the merits of their creativity and work.

But what you describe about what the exhibitors pay for, it is 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. Which is also the real world in that if there's some to be had then it's going to get taken. If there no way around those costs then at least be some of that money captured by someone in cycling most would consider as one of our own.

I have philosophical differences with that ^ . It may have taken a while to understand it, but that's where I am. On so many levels, the cost of entry is so high it matters little (to me) who gets the money. But I am saying it would be far less of my own money without the aforementioned freight, flight, and services needed to play in non-union halls. Look - I like the show and I like the people, so let's not go there. I also have a lens to look through that goes back to Houston 1.0, and my opinions reflect will it. Thanks.

[mgdanna]

Even without unions setting the fees for working within their halls, the exposition services company that runs everything from the door inward (loading dock, electric, handling boxes, load-out, palette-ing, etc etc, gets to set theirs - and they are not low. I understand what you are saying. If we use a non-union venue then it is because a decision was made to circumvent their price structure. But if the money you don't give them is given (over and over) to FedEx and United Airlines, and Yellow Freight, it would be nice if it balanced out. But it doesn't. It costs more. At non-union halls, the exposition service has the monopoly. I spent a small fortune in Denver with Brede Exposition Services. Actually - it wasn't small. And, I think that they operate with the same strong-handedness as others think that unions employ.

I am the union steward at my place of employment. Therefore, I play an active role in negotiating our contract. I think it is important to focus on the word negotiate. Unlike the vendors mentioned above, we do not set our fees. They are a product of negotiation. If our negotiated compensation is higher than the market will bear, our theater goes un-rented and we are consequently unemployed. I am a per diem employee. No work = no $$$.

A theater is an environment very similar to an exhibition hall. We have the same problems with our clients as some of you guys have with the various locations considered for NAHBS. Those problems stem mostly from the third party client being subject to a contract negotiated between the hall/theater management and the union; a negotiation they were not a part of. I understand the frustration.

I didn't really mean to spark a discussion on trade unionism, but it's nice to see a civil discussion on the subject.

[e-RICHIE]

I am the union steward at my place of employment. Therefore, I play an active role in negotiating our contract. I think it is important to focus on the word negotiate. Unlike the vendors mentioned above, we do not set our fees. They are a product of negotiation. If our negotiated compensation is higher than the market will bear, our theater goes un-rented and we are consequently unemployed. I am a per diem employee. No work = no $$$.

A theater is an environment very similar to an exhibition hall. We have the same problems with our clients as some of you guys have with the various locations considered for NAHBS. Those problems stem mostly from the third party client being subject to a contract negotiated between the hall/theater management and the union; a negotiation they were not a part of. I understand the frustration.

I didn't really mean to spark a discussion on trade unionism, but it's nice to see a civil discussion on the subject.

Thanks -

As an example of several recent iterations, it has been explained to me that moving to (union 'controlled' hall venue goes here --> ) ______ , a booth would cost an additional $300. From my experience and Quicken history, to avoid said venues bleeds me of an average of 5-6 times that very amount to play elsewhere. The light finally has gone on atmo.

[Eric Estlund]

I think there is an issue of scale, both for the venue and the booth sizes. I keep my costs low (ish) by choosing a fairly spartan set up. When walking across the 2 blocks inside the hall to get to our room, I had to wonder if maybe the venue was larger then we needed. I have not seen the NAHBS numbers, but have seen some venue pricing for other locations. There is a big range between circus tent and mega hall, and for our smallish 200 exhibitor show, I wonder if something smaller might not be a better fit. I DO NOT begrudge Don or the Union guys making a living, but as a little fish myself I sometimes wonder if we ALL could see similar return with a little less up front.

[Freddy Salgado]

“But come on, wooden bikes?”

I understand your skepticism but like it or not it is a legitimate “niche” that to my surprise has a mind of its own. I can’t speak for Calfee,(truly admire Craigs efforts in Africa with bamboosero program!), Boo, Renovo, etc, etc but I will say this for starters, I have worked at bike shops most of my life and now own one. To the average bike shop visitor 9 times out of ten the bamboo bike will get noticed before any other Gucci offering on the floor, it’s a very powerful draw card to my shop and gets people in the door!
In this age of the bike industry the lines are so blurred between bike brands, to the untrained eye the only thing that differentiates bikes these days is color. In my effort to set my shop apart from others it was always my intention to build my own frames. I did quite abit of research before I jumped into the fire, bamboo is very difficult to build bike frames with but I love working with the material. I am really impressed with the ride quality considering you are riding grass, some people like steel, some people prefer aluminum, everyone has different tastes buy what you like.
Something that has taken awhile to get my head around, I discovered a market outside of the bike industry that want these bikes over the main stream offerings and are willing to pay me to make them. It is a privilege to be a bike frame maker regardless where you are on the timeline or what material you prefer to make them with. I appreciate and have a great deal of respect for all the other builders on vs that give up heaps of time and effort to write about their own trials and tribulations, even though the materials we use a very different I seek comfort in knowing our growing and learning experiences are sort of similar.
Freddy
PS thanks to bike shop owners that contribute, some of you cats put the “G” in Gucci with those sick, sick builds!

Yes, there were too many wooden bikes. I know that from an engineering standpoint, it is possible and Calfee has stood behind this for a decade or more, but come on, wooden bikes?

I am one of those people who attended, had show bike, packed it up and took it home. It will be ridden a lot. In fact, I will probably sell my MTB now that I have this CX bike.

I think the article was quite astute.

[d_douglas]

Ha - thanks for the reply, Freddy. I dont mean to be offensive, as I appreciate everyone's work at the show. I dont like thinking of myself as a traditionalist, but I just wonder if these bikes can stand up to the punishment that a ferrous or carbon bike could. Given nice weather and smooth rolling trails, I imagine that the bamboo bikes would be just fine, but I would race or ride in wet weather on them, plus I suspect the lifespan of these bikes must be limited.

Dont get me wrong, I love virtually all bikes, and I would love to get a chance to ride one of yours (specifically in NZ - please invite me in spite of my comment against wooden bikes ;), but I feel as though the material is a novel one that should remain novel. Getting attention is one thing, and I certainly stared at a few of them, but functionality year in-year out, leaves me wondering if they could hold out. What the hell do I know> ??

“But come on, wooden bikes?”

I understand your skepticism but like it or not it is a legitimate “niche” that to my surprise has a mind of its own. I can’t speak for Calfee,(truly admire Craigs efforts in Africa with bamboosero program!), Boo, Renovo, etc, etc but I will say this for starters, I have worked at bike shops most of my life and now own one. To the average bike shop visitor 9 times out of ten the bamboo bike will get noticed before any other Gucci offering on the floor, it’s a very powerful draw card to my shop and gets people in the door!
In this age of the bike industry the lines are so blurred between bike brands, to the untrained eye the only thing that differentiates bikes these days is color. In my effort to set my shop apart from others it was always my intention to build my own frames. I did quite abit of research before I jumped into the fire, bamboo is very difficult to build bike frames with but I love working with the material. I am really impressed with the ride quality considering you are riding grass, some people like steel, some people prefer aluminum, everyone has different tastes buy what you like.
Something that has taken awhile to get my head around, I discovered a market outside of the bike industry that want these bikes over the main stream offerings and are willing to pay me to make them. It is a privilege to be a bike frame maker regardless where you are on the timeline or what material you prefer to make them with. I appreciate and have a great deal of respect for all the other builders on vs that give up heaps of time and effort to write about their own trials and tribulations, even though the materials we use a very different I seek comfort in knowing our growing and learning experiences are sort of similar.
Freddy
PS thanks to bike shop owners that contribute, some of you cats put the “G” in Gucci with those sick, sick builds!

[marc1adrien]

Well, I've never made it to a NAHBS show. It is on my list.

But my bike has. A riding buddy -- who sees me thrash my ride weekly -- flagged the original blog for me. It bugged me, mostly because real people do ride these bikes. So I wrote a response on Tumblr, which is here:

Untitled

[doomridesout]

If bamboo isn't strong enough to take a trail hit, why can you build a house out of it?

[Freddy Salgado]

No worries Douglas, it’s entertaining to hear initial reaction when customers discover the bamboo bikes in my shop, working on setting up video camera to catch the 1001 opinions. I do think of myself as a traditionalist in that when I ride a bike it should perform its duty for what it was intended to do. In regards to bamboos durability and strength consider me the poster child for pushing the envelope with this material. I have raced downhill mtb’s at the world class level, represented Puerto Rico at 2006 DHI World Champs on a UCI approved prototype bike I developed.
In the most extreme case testing bamboo I made a bmx bike that was back flipped out of a skate park bowl and pounded to flat ground with no problems. When properly made bamboo bikes can be more crash tolerant than most carbon, aluminum or steel bike frames, this has been proven at an independent test facility in Germany. With modern advancements in wood preservatives that can stabilize and harden wood that has been under water for hundreds of years, uv protective clear coats, and even plant based epoxy resins, the bikes I make will survive long past the original owner if ridden for what they are intended.
My bikes are not novelties or show bikes, they are real tools. When we start talking about racing bamboo bikes this is when I step off the soap box. I personally race xc and cx on bamboo bikes, in my age category my bikes are as fast as anybodies. On the bike path my commuter hands down is the fastest! I ride what a sell and if you live in NZ you will get a trial period to make sure the ride exceeds expectations, so far so good with this program.
Douglas consider yourself invited, anyone that makes the effort to come out for a visit that rides can’t leave Gisborne without test riding a bamboo bike! NZ is king of the most scenic gravel road rides around, great place to hold training camps or hell I’ll even go as far to say baller’s paradise, bring it on!
Freddy

Ha - thanks for the reply, Freddy. I dont mean to be offensive, as I appreciate everyone's work at the show. I dont like thinking of myself as a traditionalist, but I just wonder if these bikes can stand up to the punishment that a ferrous or carbon bike could. Given nice weather and smooth rolling trails, I imagine that the bamboo bikes would be just fine, but I would race or ride in wet weather on them, plus I suspect the lifespan of these bikes must be limited.

Dont get me wrong, I love virtually all bikes, and I would love to get a chance to ride one of yours (specifically in NZ - please invite me in spite of my comment against wooden bikes ;), but I feel as though the material is a novel one that should remain novel. Getting attention is one thing, and I certainly stared at a few of them, but functionality year in-year out, leaves me wondering if they could hold out. What the hell do I know> ??