gettin started

[nash]

first thread started on this forum, been reading for a little while, also thinking about getting into framebuilding, and wondered about some opinions you all may have.

if one was to pursue building bicycle frames with no prior experience there would conceivably be a couple of different ways (two?). one would be to go to a school like ubi or yamaguchi or another and that would be a good intro. another approach would be to spend the money on tools, rather than a course, read as much as possible, give it a go, teach yourself as well as you can.

now, i suppose an answer to which path would be preferable would have a bit to do with what the intentions are. to have a hobby, to have a career? to build one frame for yourself, to build some for your friends, to get a job, etc.

i'm just wondering what any of your thoughts might be about this. there are many established professional frame builders who read and write on this forum. another question would be, if ones goal is to make frame building a career, who does one go about that? a lot of you are one man operations. but i assume larger custom frame builders hire builders, and a new comer would potentially be able to be hired? and if so, what do you think would be most likely to get you a job? a stint at ubi and the frame you built there? two or three frames you built yourself with no school?

anyway, thoughts?

[Eric Estlund]

My recommendation is to go to a class. The most expensive frame building class is cheaper then tooling up and realizing it's not for you.

Frame building isn't a skill, it's a long series of skills. Folks can and do teach themselves how it's done, but why lengthen your learning curve (and spend money teaching yourself mistakes and bad habits)?

US manufacturing companies are hiring. That said, they may or may not be interested in hiring and paying to train someone who wants to jump ship with a skill set and set up a solo gig.

Before you even think about selling bikes, I recommend a) learning as much as you can about putting them together (see if you can do both of the above) and b) learn as much as you can about small business.

All of that is said with the best intentions- if you want to be successful be prepared for a long road with a lot of work. Just like any other skill set or small biz. Welcome aboard, and best of luck!

[nash]

heres another variable to throw in, experience with the materials. i, for instance, have never worked with metal. i'm mechanically competent, i work as a bicycle mechanic, as far as fabricating objects, my experience is almost entirely in wood furniture, carpentry, a few musical instruments.

on the other hand, my fellow line mechanic, with who i have spent a decent amount of time mulling this question over, has in fact done some welding and machining. he is more curious about whether he should get the tools and be self taught. i assume i should go to a school because i honestly dont know what i'm in for.

do you think experience would make a difference in your advice?

[veryredbike]

I'd take the class. I went the self taught route and it cost me as much as the class would have to get the first frame done, and I'm not as sure of myself as I would be with someone paid to look over my shoulder.

I'd buy two sets of tubes and lugs for the first couple of bikes. I should have myself. It's a lot less painful when you botch a joint, and as someone mentioned on my recent "god I messed this thing up thread" it's harder to convince yourself to go ahead with something you're not sure of that way.

I'd practice a LOT before putting torch to something you'd ride. It's all harder than it looks, and the urge to get ahead of yourself is strong.

This is, it should be mentioned the "just a couple of steps ahead of you" perspective. I've built one bike and am working on the second.

[Eric Estlund]

do you think experience would make a difference in your advice?

Nope. I knew how to braze and weld before taking a class- I took one to learn how to build bicycles. Like I said- it's an assortment of skills, not just joinery. My basic rule of thumb- if there is any doubt, take the class.

[Dallas Tex]

If you have the dough, I don't see how a good class could be a bad choice. But I wouldn't plan on that qualifying you for a position (even an internship) at a small US production shop.

Definitely don't tool up. Beg, borrow, improvise, take the minimalist route. A good bike shop should have chase/face/ream frame tools - borrow or pay for access.

Are there any builders in your area, even hobby guys, that would let you use their equipment?

Build as many as you can before you decide on it as a career choice. You're not making an informed decision if you've never done this thing you'd like to do as a career.

Buy some cheap tubes on sale and build as many as possible. Don't reinvent the wheel, don't use expensive pipes. After actually building a bunch you may realize it's not what you thought it was.

What do you do now? Do you like it and are you good at it? Tell me yes/no and tell why?

[prolix21]

I would recommend the class route as well. I ended up going to UBI and the experience was great, as were the people. Getting to work experienced guys like Ron Sutphin and Keith Anderson is killer and I learned so much from them. They really have the course down to a science, and you'll walk out with a nice frame and a heavy dose of reality as to what your next steps/options are.

While UBI will teach you on all the most awesome of tools, they also will show you how to do stuff on the cheap and without tools. Something I'm growing to appreciate as I work on frame #2 and have very minimal tooling.

[afwalker]

I am trying the build 5-10 for myself and family first before going to a class. I started with a welding class at the local VoTech then I did the Paterick DVD and book which I would recommend, built 10 sets of rear bike touring racks, then started with a lugged bike. Now I've done 4 bikes and tried brass and silver fillet brazed. My thought was I would have more "aha" moments in the class after I knew a little of what I was trying to do and how this new pointer/hint/suggestion/plan would be the better way to do things. I had a friend/lbs bike mechanic who went to Toby Stanton's frame building class who helped me get started, so that was a big help. The tools are way expensive and there is certainly the temptation to get all the machining possible. It's been a multi-year ordeal to acquire what I would call a complete framebuilding shop. This place is a great cooperative of great builders and leaders helping out little hobbyists like me and being made to feel welcome. Search back through the forums and find many helpful threads even on this topic.
Now I'll stand aside and let the wiser ones than I guide you:) Do start having fun trying to get some practice tubes to stick together. Plain 4130 cromo from Wicks or onlinemetals.comfor example.
cheers

[Eric Estlund]

But I wouldn't plan on that qualifying you for a position (even an internship) at a small US production shop.

True! If anything it will give you a foot in the door, or one more check compared to other guys applying for the same entry level fab position. In my experience, most places whant to hire the right fit for their company, not some short timer. When I applied for my gig at Bike Friday I made it clear I wanted to be there for a bit, and that I was interested in giving to their company, not just sucking info and resources.

Folks building bikes in the US fall into two camps- bike people that are pretty good at fab, and fab folks that are good at their jobs (but not necessarily interested in riding bikes). It's a gig, and every boss wants the best combo to get the most work done at a good rate to meet their quality standards. Some of my best co-workers were ex-waitresses, ex- assemblers and ex-soda company repair men. They all had a killer work ethic, and wanted to do their job as best as they could every day they were paid to be there. They fell pretty widely on the spectrum of "liked- could care less" on bikes.

I would recommend a class as the cheap, time sensitive way to get a good view of a process. The class would be for your development.

[nash]

its funny how that spectrum works and how people get into certain things. personally, i have to admit i've never enjoyed riding bikes as much i do working on them. i love riding and think i'll most likely always do it, but my development as a rider has always lagged behind my development as a mechanic. i got into it cause i had a pile of crap parts and wanted to make something.

sorta like in high school when i'd be making homemade bongs and pipes tho i was less into the actual smoking. making stuff is the fun part.

[nash]

anyway, sounds like saving up for a class at ubi would be the way to go. and continue to read all you guys's blogs and galleries and look at the awesome frames and metalwork.

any other frame school recommendations? ubi seems pretty ideal though.

[Erik B]

anyway, sounds like saving up for a class at ubi would be the way to go. and continue to read all you guys's blogs and galleries and look at the awesome frames and metalwork.

any other frame school recommendations? ubi seems pretty ideal though.

Brew, Yamaguchi, Fattic and Bohm might be some other reasonable choices depending on where you are in the world.

I'd also recomend some vo-tech classes prior if possible, if you truly have no metal working experience. The relevance of these would depend on your preferred method of joinery but a good teacher would bring some relevance to the class regardless if you let them know your personal "why I am here"

[Mr_Rafi]

If I was really really serious about getting into the "industry" I'd take ANT's 6 week class - here. It's expensive, but you get a huge amount for the money. It's cheap, if you look at it long term. I am self taught, with help from a local builder in the beginning, and had I knew then what I know now, I'd have likely taken one of the more personal intensive classes - Yamaguchi, Bohm, Fattic, ANT - and learned the basics the right way, the first time.

I've still taken classes too - machine tool class, oxy-acetylene (usually they are gas welding classes with little attention to brazing, to ask), TIG. But learning the right way, the first time, will pay huge dividends.

[prolix21]

its funny how that spectrum works and how people get into certain things. personally, i have to admit i've never enjoyed riding bikes as much i do working on them. i love riding and think i'll most likely always do it, but my development as a rider has always lagged behind my development as a mechanic. i got into it cause i had a pile of crap parts and wanted to make something.

sorta like in high school when i'd be making homemade bongs and pipes tho i was less into the actual smoking. making stuff is the fun part.

i'm very much in the same boat. i love riding, but i've never been a racer. i like to watch races and ride with other people (even teams), but i'm not into racing or that scene at all. i ride for me and that's about it.

i went to UBI to take my mechanical interest to the next level. i've always had bikes and have always spent my time tinkering, rebuilding, breaking, rebuilding again. i learned to build wheels and that quickly lead into me wanting to build frames and control every aspect of what i ride. i had very little metalworking experience when i went to UBI and it turns out i had more that most people there. they assume you're starting from zero and it's amazing what you'll learn in 2 weeks.

you could certainly learn brazing or welding or whatever from a tech school, but you're not going to learn bike design or how to build bikes. i had been reading things endlessly for over a year before my class, but once you get that pile of tubes its touch to put what you read into practice. Ron and everyone there are invaluable in that regard and it's quite an adventure. i took the brazing class and really want to go back and do the tig or the ti class sometime or maybe go visit Mr Fattic and see what else i can learn

post-class it's rough b/c you have a million ideas and want to do it all, and then have to somehow translate that into your own shop/space and what tooling your budget permits. i'm still trying to sort out frame two and the tooling for that. it's certainly addicting, but so worth it.

[Curt Goodrich]

The cheapest (least expensive) route to learning to build a frame is taking a class. The fastest (and likely most expensive) route to learning how to be a builder of frames is working in the industry. That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.

[Luke]

Start...then continue...listen...learn...practice...start again. Repeat as needed.
There is a wealth of info on these pages.
Take what you need, and leave the rest.

Knowledge is power!

oh yeah, and have fun.
-Luke