44 Bikes

[fortyfour]

So continuing down the road of "Why I build What I build", here is the 3rd installment featuring my personal Singlespeed as built breaking down the set up, component spec and build features. Hope all enjoy this one - read all about it over on the 44 Bikes Blog.

[Scott Altland]

Thanks for the response Kris.I'm thinking about doing it with my Mariachi.My concern is long high speed descents...and still grabbing some lever to modulate my speed.Actually I posted my thoughts on the potential change to my setup in the mountainbike section.I'm still experimenting.

[fortyfour]

Thanks for the response Kris.I'm thinking about doing it with my Mariachi.My concern is long high speed descents...and still grabbing some lever to modulate my speed.Actually I posted my thoughts on the potential change to my setup in the mountainbike section.I'm still experimenting.

If I were you, I'd get a set of drop bars that are short/shallow but wide in stance. Then mate them up with a set of Cane Creek Drop V's IF you are running it singlespeed. I'm sure you could rig something up with a shifter if you're running gears and run the Mariachi as a monster cross kind of build. Just choose a 2.1 or 1.8 with lower profile knob pattern that is tight. A set of WTB Nano's or even a set of Schwalbe Racing Ralph's are nice options. Have fun with it. I know that build you found was a ton of fun. Brakes were not ideal though, I will be honest. But they stopped "good enough"!

[funcrusher]

Good question! I have been considering it, but we shall see. If I do, they'd be smaller batches to start, and I'd build them a touch differently. I'll let everyone know if this does happen.

In that case I'll take 2

[fortyfour]

On February 6th, 2015 I will complete 40 revolutions around the sun. That means I need to build myself a 40th Revolution bike. Go all out and go hog wild. XX1 for starters. And since my birthday is in the dead of winter, it's going to be a fat bike sporting the new 190mm rear end standard.

[fortyfour]

[fortyfour]

[fortyfour]

[OnTheEllipse]

Never chimed in on this thread I don't think, but I love the mtbs you're doing. On my watchlist!

Quick question: are you doing design work for x-Fusion? Just saw a DC ad that had "you" written all over it.

[fortyfour]

Never chimed in on this thread I don't think, but I love the mtbs you're doing. On my watchlist!

Quick question: are you doing design work for x-Fusion? Just saw a DC ad that had "you" written all over it.

Thanks for the kind words regarding the work. X-Fusion is not a client of mine and actually, out of the long list I once had, it's been whittled down to maybe a handful with only one really big one left. I am now actually in a place where I only take on new work/clients on the design side of things if I am interested in the project. Not to say I wasn't interested in previous projects. But I took on a lot of projects that weren't necessarily what I would have preferred to do - I had fun, learned a lot and diversified my skill set because I forced myself to take on so many different types of clients (both really huge and really, really small). I think that variety really set me up to handle the rigors of the service end of owning a custom bicycle frame shop.

What has been very rewarding though, is that slowly but surely, the majority of the design work I now do is most likely 44 Bikes. That slow transition has been really good for the business as it has allowed it to grow and mature on it's own without being rushed. Reputation is everything and it's a huge part of a frame shop. The slow transition between the two disciplines has made that grow slowly, steady and strong.

[Matthew Strongin]

Thanks to all for the support and for sharing the poster stoke. Keep them coming. I'm getting frames for my own copies later this week...

Construction on the home office was finally wrapped up today. My first order of business was putting these prints into frames. All that's left is to hang them on the wall.



Thanks again, Kris!

[fortyfour]

That's pretty cool - they'll keep you good company while you toil your day away. Good reminders to make time and head out for some shred.

In other news... Winter is on it's way. It can wait, but I'm getting excited for when it does arrive with this sucker getting close to being finished.

[fortyfour]

So there is a thread in the General Discussion regarding some Fat Bike handling woes. I was mentioned as someone to speak with... There was a request to post my thoughts up here in my Smoked Out. I am also working on my final installment of Why I build What I Build series and the last piece will be on my own Fat Bike. I've recently put together a set of updates / revisions for a 4th prototype I'll be riding for the winter of 2015. So I'm waiting on that to come back from powder as there were some subtle changes and some progression over the last iteration - that of course came about from a full season of riding this past winter 2014. So once that is built, and pictures shot I can include it in the article which most likely will be a 2 part article. There's that much to say I suppose about a Fat Bike as it is a really specialized beast. So here's my thoughts based on this original post/set of questions found here:

My comments only are speaking in regards to a fat bike on snow - a fat bike on a dirt is a much different beast. Snow and the type of snow can play a lot of different roles.

So the handling of a fat bike can really be a layer of different factors. Conditions play a huge part as the type of snow plays a factor and temperatures can change what is going on beneath you if it's a long ride. The shape of a fat bike tires contact patch can play a part. Tire pressure plays a part. Lastly, the actual bike geometry plays a part. The one giant factor that you need to know is that because the tire is so large, it will grab at any little rut and toss you or drag you in one direction or the other resulting in you having to under or over steer, which leads to an extreme of either one and then you're in the cabbage... I know with all of Mike's knowledge/experience, he is on a very similar trajectory for fat bike setup and geometry as I have been following, with really not speaking with him to this regards (I've read that article, and it's pretty much what I have been doing with my experience). To a certain degree, the front end will wander a bit no matter what you do. But the degree of how much it actually wanders starts to get sorted in the construction of the fat bike itself. At speed, like you have found, all of that kind of just melts away. It's at slow speed when things get amplified (and many times, slow speed is the majority of the ride when out in the snow).

The preparation of the trail can play a role, how much or how little of a base you have, how packed the snow is or how rutted up it is... I'd say up to 8" of fresh powder you're most likely fine and rolling steady. I've found you start to get bogged down anything over that. Wet heavier snow really can be a problem. But this is where a tires lug depth comes into play as well as when temps start to rise-you want meat and you want heavy lugs that bite deep into the snow. Hard pack it doesn't really matter. I know for me, a 5" tire like Surly's Bud and Lou combination on an 80mm+ rim are game changers. If there is any sort of base, a 5" tire makes a HUGE difference. 4" just does not provide enough float.

Two important factors I have found that play off of each other are head tube angle and bottom bracket drop. You want that front end out in front of you but not too far out in front of you. The "air bubble" is rolling over the snow and not pushing at or into the snow if I am explaining that right. I've felt at speed, the bike actually will rise up on top of the snow to a degree - so if you can maintain some speed, you will benefit.

The next factor being that you want that bottom bracket low. Really low - this lowers the riders center of gravity, getting the rider "in" the bike and really helps to stabilize the ride. I'd say just from glancing at the geometry sheet for your Salsa, if it had more drop, you MIGHT not be having some of the issues you're having, or at least not as much? At 60mm of drop, from my experience, that's just not enough for snowy conditions be it dry powder, hardback or soft/wet snow. Some rides I will actually drop my saddle height up to and beyond 1" to gain traction and stability and this is why in the winter, I run a seat post collar with a lever.

I've also found that too short of a rear end does not really benefit a fat bike. A little more length in the rear end helps, but not so much that things get sluggish and feel like a tank.

I'd say though with certainty: there is no single factor that is the cure - it's really a recipe of all of these above factors that sets the stage for a fat bike that handles well.

Head tube angle, bottom bracket drop, chain stay length, tire width, tire pressure and the riders center of gravity balanced between the wheels and built IN the bike are the biggest things to focus on. You heard it here first... I mention nothing about that word "Trail".

[fortyfour]

Again... more information so here it is for the record on my Smoked Out from the above mentioned thread but I have placed more images here:

It is interesting that the article points towards shortening the rear end, but I think that is to see what the effects are when shortening the rear end. I can say I've done that and I've been there. I started long, went shorter and then went back to slightly longer (but not as long as I first started). Shortening the rear end also shortens your wheelbase, which doesn't do so well in the control column. I found the shorter wheelbase made the ride a little choppy and a little too sensitive? Like I said above: you want stability but not so much where it feels like a tank. That is just something you need to figure out through build, ride and repeat. I build in saddle set back as part of the rider compartment-so I am already biased a little backwards:

Here is my current set up slammed at 16.75 with 5" tires. Through out the season I tried different lengths and settle just around 17" to be just the right amount of everything - but that is in relation to all the other factors too. That is an important note to point out. I'm making decisions based on the whole recipe.



Here's the build just before with 16.5" and 4" tires.



Here's the original version with around 17.25" and 4" tires. However much steeper head angle than the above 2 - I built it very much like I would a 29er for trail and that was a mistake. Head angle all wrong and bottom bracket drop all wrong.



IF there is any one item on that recipe that has the most impact I personally think it's bottom bracket height - I'm currently in the high 70's for drop and that takes the tire pressure and displacement of the tire when seated into account - so when seated, I'm even lower. And depending on the conditions, I'll even drop the saddle some too. From what I have experienced over the course of 3 prototypes and 4 winters, lowering the riders center of gravity really grounds the bike. As soon as you move the riders center of gravity up into space, that's when the associated problems begin to get amplified. You shift the weight up and forward naturally doing this. Shifting that weight down, biased backwards slightly and IN the bike, helps to stabilize/quiet things down. I've found that also is a big factor on a 29er too, but not to the extreme with regards to a fat bike. There are other different factors I need to consider when designing a mountain bike.

Not to mention it actually feels more natural to be a little more upright and lower when riding in snow. The whole ride you are concentrating on maintaining control and traction. Your cadence also plays a very large role and big gears just don't make sense. 28t up front and at least 36t out back. Switching to a 1x11 this season in combo with a 28t up front. The key to traction is maintaining momentum, and having a constant/consistent pedal stroke. As soon as I try to get on it depending on the conditions, the rear tire breaks loose OR I push too hard and the front end starts to slide/wash to one side or the other. Heading down hill you can really feather the brakes and lay into turns doing moto style slides. Anyone who has not ridden a fat bike down a groomed single track trail in the woods at speed NEEDS to get out there and try this. It's a fucking blast hauling down a hill in snow and feathering your way through a good moto-style slide on snow.

There are differing opinions on what should happen up front in terms of rake/head tube angle. But I started steep and things were a mess. I slackened things up over the course of a few builds incrementally and things were back on track and I was not wrestling the front end any more. But how slack or steep to go I think is up for debate? Notice in both extremes more or less rake was involved. I know from my own experience that a steeper head angle with slightly more rake acted kind of like a shovel or a plow but snow was not being moved out of the way. Slackening the head angle allowed for the front end to more easily float up and on top of the snow - again, moving that bubble of air out in front of you. Ideally, you want the bike to get up and onto the top of the snow. It still sinks but you're attempting to induce the front end to float UP. I do know that with a Bud up front and a Nate out back, that was a huge difference but with the Nate out back there still was not enough float in some conditions so I'd be punching through. Now with a Lou out back, I did not experience the same problems. I rode single track in the dead of winter, un-groomed no problem (the previous build this would have been a problem):



I guess that's a lot more information.. I'll post this up in my Smoked Out too.

[fortyfour]

[fortyfour]

This is it. Your chance to get up and personal with your favorite builders. Don't miss out! Spend the night in Providence and hit up the Providence Cross Festival the next day. Did I mention Providence has some really good places for grub? No excuses. Get a baby sitter or drag the kids will. Tell the wife it can wait and yes, this IS important. Heck maybe she'll be the one telling you you're going... Either way: Be There.

[fortyfour]

[Amaro Bikes]

Happy birthay Kris!
If that's for your 40's, can't imagine what kind of death star you'll gift yourself with for the iconic 44th birthday!

[jmgorman]

Happy Birthday! Looking forward to the blog post about it.

[fortyfour]

Thanks to all who came out last night. Great to see old friends and meet new ones. Met with existing clients in the list and spoke to a handful who are reserving their spots in the list shortly. Venue was really pleasant as well - Great job by Eric Weis from the East Coast Greenway Alliance for putting in all the elbow grease to make such a wonderful evening. Also very nice to take a step back and just talk to fellow builders from the area face to face. Hoping to make next year that much better too and build on the event - My hats in the ring for next year already.

Again-thanks to all who attended and big thanks to Richard Sachs, Firefly, Geekhouse, Chapman Cycles, Circle A Cycles, A.N.T., Royal H Cycles, Horse Cycles, Beardman Bikes, Breismeister Bicycles, Honey, Concinnity Cycle Works, No. 22 Bicycles and all the rest of the exhibitors I can't recall from the show for coming out. We're a big family and it's good to have our own scene here in the North East to celebrate the custom bicycle. Just a chill night to ogle bikes and catch up with friends old and new. Bicycle stoke is what it's about.