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Thread: Shorelines

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    Default Shorelines

    Can anyone out there in lugland show me what a "classic" shoreline is.

    Secondly can someone explain what makes a good un.

    My interest in lugs is growing

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    Default Re: Shorelines

    Check out the Kvales in this weeks FNL....nuff said.

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    Default Re: Shorelines

    A shoreline is trade jargon for the edge of the lug regardless of how thick/thin the lug is atmo. Some folks braze the joint and then file the excess filler, small amount that it may be, to accentuate the edge and bring it to 90 degrees with the pipe. According to my opinion, it's more telling to be able to braze clean enough so that you don't remove filler, you simply restrain yourself from adding too much. One method that helps the brazer keep the flow from overflowing is to bevel all the lug edges inboard before the joint is fitted and the torch turned on. That way, a small cavity/valley exists and it inhibits an overzealous run of brass or silver alloy.

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    Default Re: Shorelines

    thanks for the explanation

    Part1.JPG

    Im asuming this from your explanation


    Part2.JPG

    not this


    tube laser profile.JPG

    this would be the profile with the undercut following the profile roughly if it was constantly at 90 degrees


    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    A shoreline is trade jargon for the edge of the lug regardless of how thick/thin the lug is atmo. Some folks braze the joint and then file the excess filler, small amount that it may be, to accentuate the edge and bring it to 90 degrees with the pipe. According to my opinion, it's more telling to be able to braze clean enough so that you don't remove filler, you simply restrain yourself from adding too much. One method that helps the brazer keep the flow from overflowing is to bevel all the lug edges inboard before the joint is fitted and the torch turned on. That way, a small cavity/valley exists and it inhibits an overzealous run of brass or silver alloy.

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    Default Re: Shorelines

    Quote Originally Posted by compositepro View Post
    this would be the profile with the undercut following the profile roughly if it was constantly at 90 degrees
    Consider that some assume the lug edge to stand at 90 degrees to the pipe. I use my body english to
    convince the edge to lean inboard, and I accentuate heavily it atmo. If no material bleeds out at all it
    will almost appear as a gap to the uninitiated - because the "crevice" between the outer most edge of
    the lug at any point and the inner most edge is noticeable, though slight.

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    Default Re: Shorelines

    I had this same discussion with our community a few years ago. I was told then that the base of the shore line "had' to be at 90* with the tube. That relationship is what constituted "proper" technique. I dissagree in that this is all, at most, artistic preference. Andy.
    Andy Stewart
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    Default Re: Shorelines

    thanks to all

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    Default Re: Shorelines

    The most difficult aspect I seem to have is seeing that the filler hasn't made it to some part of the shoreline. This part came up short; I thought it looked fine during and immediately after brazing. It wasn't until the flux was removed that I noticed the problem, though in the first photo I now see the shadow under the flux. It's about a mm recessed here. Structurally the joint is fine but it makes me grind my teeth.

    image.jpg

    image.jpg
    John Clay
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    My Framebuilding: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/sets

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    Default Re: Shorelines

    Quote Originally Posted by jclay View Post
    The most difficult aspect I seem to have is seeing that the filler hasn't made it to some part of the shoreline. <cut>
    It's not about seeing, it's about sensing.
    It comes eventually atmo..

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    Default Re: Shorelines

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    It's not about seeing, it's about sensing.
    It comes eventually atmo..
    Said Obi Wan to Luke on their first flight on the Millennium Falcon.
    Lane DeCamp

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    Default Re: Shorelines

    It's also about doing a bunch, getting a feel, and backing that up with destructive tests to confirm.

    If you see silver (or brass) wick around a lug edge, it might feel right, but actually be dry where it counts. Instinct is best honed with experience.

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    Default Re: Shorelines

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    It's not about seeing, it's about sensing.
    Or deducing: there's a distinct change in thermal conductivity when the silver fills the air gap.

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    Default Re: Shorelines

    Quote Originally Posted by jclay View Post
    The most difficult aspect I seem to have is seeing that the filler hasn't made it to some part of the shoreline. This part came up short; I thought it looked fine during and immediately after brazing. It wasn't until the flux was removed that I noticed the problem, though in the first photo I now see the shadow under the flux. It's about a mm recessed here. Structurally the joint is fine but it makes me grind my teeth.

    image.jpg
    this generates me a "virgin looking flux after braze envy"
    Davorin Ruševljan
    rookie that does not know what things he does not know about frame building.
    nevertheless, hopeful to change that in distant future
    http://www.cloud208.com/

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    Default Re: Shorelines

    There is a technique when nearly done with brazing a lug which helps ensure a neat shore line. Usually done by running your flame along the shore line to push flux away and have the shore be the last hot location. This way you can both see the line as well as have the filler flow to the hot location. But a well filled lug won't have much filler flow any longer any way.

    I haven't done the best job explaining this. Perhaps Doug or another will chime in. Andy
    Andy Stewart
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    Default Re: Shorelines

    A solid and completely filled joint is the goal rather than what it looks like. If you focus on brazing the lug to achieve the former, the latter simply falls into place. Trying to self-correct a shoreline, or even paying attention to it as if it alone is the task, will only result in extra passes and prolonged heating cycles.

    I'm not very comfortable starting the new year by quoting from the past, but if you don't go through the steps repeatedly and ad nauseum, not only will the process take longer to realize - it may never come at all. Since you (one...) won't work in production, make the investment in practice materials, line up 50 lugs and tube sections, start brazing, and make notes. Then do it again atmo. Make the routine a gift you give yourself since you're essentially your own apprentice.

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    Default Re: Shorelines

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
    There is a technique when nearly done with brazing a lug which helps ensure a neat shore line. Usually done by running your flame along the shore line to push flux away and have the shore be the last hot location. This way you can both see the line as well as have the filler flow to the hot location. But a well filled lug won't have much filler flow any longer any way.

    I haven't done the best job explaining this. Perhaps Doug or another will chime in. Andy
    Thanks all.

    Good tips Andy - I've used the tip of the filler to scribe the shoreline but I still miss spots sometimes. I'll try your extra bit of info about the flame and be more diligent about it, and really look harder. I probably need to start using my stronger magnifiers.

    I also need to revise my method of holding the work so I don't look like a pretzel when accessing certain parts of the frame. My stand doesn't spin like a Park stand, lugs are often in sub-optimal positions and I have nothing on which to brace my body for stability. It doesn't help. Actually, it makes some things a sure'nuff PITA.

    As to this particular boo boo: The metal surfaces got tinned and bringing the filler from one shore, across the miter and to the other isn't a problem. The root cause of the problem with that portion of the shoreline was excessive tube/lug clearance due to my bending the lug 3 or 4 degrees and not drifting/shrinking the flank of the lug bore to the tube adequately. Capillarity wasn't adequate to bring the filler all the way to the shore. Close, but not quite. That's the lesson. I did a better job of that elsewhere; most all the spigots got bent quite a lot and I spent a lot of time shrinking/snugging the bores to the pipes....I just "misunderestimated" the gap on this one. Had I noticed the deficit I could have easily filled it after flowing the lug. As it is, there is plenty of silver for a strong joint, it's just irksome.
    John Clay
    Tallahassee, FL
    My Framebuilding: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/sets

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    Default Re: Shorelines

    Quote Originally Posted by jclay View Post

    I also need to revise my method of holding the work so I don't look like a pretzel when accessing certain parts of the frame. My stand doesn't spin like a Park stand, lugs are often in sub-optimal positions and I have nothing on which to brace my body for stability. It doesn't help. Actually, it makes some things a sure'nuff PITA.
    Braze across rather than up to down so that gravity won't be the enemy it is. Let the heat draw the filler metal rather than the orientation of the parts. Better still, practice (sic) brazing down to up so you can learn how to direct (as in, tame...) the beast to do what you want rather than what it wants atmo.

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    Default Re: Shorelines

    Quote Originally Posted by e-RICHIE View Post
    Braze across rather than up to down so that gravity won't be the enemy it is. Let the heat draw the filler metal rather than the orientation of the parts. Better still, practice (sic) brazing down to up so you can learn how to direct (as in, tame...) the beast to do what you want rather than what it wants atmo.
    Thanks Richard.

    I pull the filler from bottom to up frequently, with ease....just not across the Grand Canyon! The more I look at that gap the more I wonder how I missed it during the myriad assembly/dis-assembly exercises. Actually I do know; all the others that got tweaked had far larger gaps and I fixated on shrinking those. Spent a lot of time with them, shrinking, fitting again and again until they fit pretty well. But this one was so easy to bend, and the gap not as hugely obvious, it sorta slid under the radar. That's my lesson.

    "Slow down, we're in a hurry."
    John Clay
    Tallahassee, FL
    My Framebuilding: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/sets

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    Default Re: Shorelines

    As to this particular boo boo: The metal surfaces got tinned and bringing the filler from one shore, across the miter and to the other isn't a problem. The root cause of the problem with that portion of the shoreline was excessive tube/lug clearance due to my bending the lug 3 or 4 degrees and not drifting/shrinking the flank of the lug bore to the tube adequately. Capillarity wasn't adequate to bring the filler all the way to the shore. Close, but not quite. That's the lesson. I did a better job of that elsewhere; most all the spigots got bent quite a lot and I spent a lot of time shrinking/snugging the bores to the pipes....I just "misunderestimated" the gap on this one. Had I noticed the deficit I could have easily filled it after flowing the lug. As it is, there is plenty of silver for a strong joint, it's just irksome. -- John Clay

    Try brass to braze when the gaps are large. It's also a lot less expensive if you're doing a lot of practice. Andy.
    Andy Stewart
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