downsize the fantasy atmo -

[Dave Anderson]

Used machines, buy, sell, trade
802 376 6639

Hi Frank.

Good to see you on the Salon!

Dave

[FrankTheWelder]

Hi Frank.

Good to see you on the Salon!

Dave

Hi and thanks! I really like what goes on here. Lot's of beautiful metal and engaging conversation.

[savine]

I went on a week long course back in the uk with a well known uk builder, all i had there were files, saw and more files. go on a couple of years i'm in someone else's workshop with all the gear but firmly stuck in my way doing everything the luddite way by hand. granted for me building is just a hobby and i'm in the workshop once a week when i'm not out at races but i do a lot of my work in my workshop in breaks at work....tubes in the park tool stand cut n file, it's just satisfying doing it by hand. hope this has made sense.

[Proparc]

Life long model airplane builder-working on my bikes, then building my own wheels then, making my own frames was a natural extension. It takes far longer to build a good model airplane,(and a hell of a lot more patience) than a good bike frame. Several months on a good model airplane is common. A year long build is not unusual.

When you make your own frames, you get the quality you want,(model airplane standards) with the geometry you want,at the price you want, at the time you want it. Many moons ago, bike companies just didn't have it together on 65 centimeter frames-my size. Had to bust them out.

[WadePatton]

Make tools practice welding build bikes.

i wants chinery (or just access to it) to make tools and some other-than-bike-aps. it's not on the 5-year plan tho.

its hard work no matter how you cut your tubes.In the end, its all good. Dave

I hate credit and don't believe anything less than a house should be financed (not even [efucking-specially] a car) and certainly not tools.

sound financial plan. period. [emphasis added yo]



maybe it's a stage anyone who digs metal and tools and fabrication _must_ simply go through even in the face of all this wisdom. especially if he/she doesn't have handy access to such and isn't enthralled by emachine-ing.

if i manage to make a living at fb, even if i outsourced all the little trinkets and necessaries, i'll still likely acquire some modest 'chine tools for special projects, applications, prototypes, jiggeries und fixtures*, etc. but won't likely involve them directly in production.

*altering or adjusting the set of compromises inherent in any fixed thing to fit my priorities as i discover/develop them-not "reinventing the wheel" but lacing it for my application/aptitude.

[Willie1]

I have been reading posts here for the past several days, and this one in particular resonated strongly with me. I have been bitten by the bug to build my own frames, and have fantasies of doing limited builds for others, in a few years time. I am realizing the lifelong skill building to do things right is present in this environment as is any profession. I work as a family therapist, and have worked in mental health for 19 years. I could not imagine anyone quitting their day job to start a practice in therapy. Why would it be any different with any other trade. I never had a desire to leave my career to build bikes, but 5-10 per year would be a nice way to use my time off. I am not going in with no skills whatsoever. I grew up on a farm, and have done all my own mechanical work on every piece of equipment I've ever owned, including full engine rebuilds on European diesels. I have repaired many broken pieces of equipment and have some welding practice (not like the master craftsmen here, but I have even welded auto body panels with oxy acetaline.) I am a big believer that anything that can be done with machining tools can be done better by hand. So with being off for 8 weeks after knee surgery, I embark on my first experiment with a home built frame. I just want to build something that isn't a compromise as all frames from major manufacturers are to me. I like to tinker. I like to create, and most importantly, I like to learn. I have read the Paterick Manual three times back to back. I have watched the DVDs twice now. I am half way through the Lincoln Electric The Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding. I feel I can do some practice miters and welds this week, and maybe miter the front triangle on my first steel frame..

[e-RICHIE]

Thanks, Willie 1 - welcome to V place atmo.

[Andrew R Stewart]

Willie 1- Your story is a good one and it sounds like you have the passion for fabricating. The only fly I'd put in your soup is that of insurance not to protect you but to take care of whoever rides your bikes. This is a topic full of trust, ego, maturity (or lack of), fate and potentially changing feelings. If you build for other then direct family please consider the obligation of insurance. Andy.

[Willie1]

The insurance is definitely a good point. I have this on my radar. I would set up an inc or ltd business if I sold frames to others to protect myself and have insurance. In Canada, we are pretty protected by our socialist government against injury, loss of job etc, and I appreciate the reminder. Is there specific bike building insurance, or does business insurance cover it?

I definitely have the fabricating bug. I have hotrodded and painted several vehicles along the way. Engine swaps and rebuilds are common place. I have worked in a cabinet shop in my teen years. I built a dining room table for my wife for Christmas the year we moved to our acreage. I built all of the enclosures for the reptiles I used to breed. I have numerous handmade tools for many different jobs.

I think the ADHD is a big part of it. I was diagnosed 2 years ago even though I always suspected I had it. Professionals used to believe ADHD was linked to low intelligence and college educated people could not have it. This has been disproven. The meds make life so much easier and I didn't lose my passion or creativity. I just don't lose my keys daily or feel bored and edgy as easily.

[Andrew R Stewart]

Willie1- Good to hear that insurance is on your radar. But a question. Does the government support the victims to the level them enjoyed before an accident that looses them their ability to earn a living? Or are you referencing medical and minimual cost of living coverage? I have felt that Canada does a much better job at balancing the indivdual VS the society as a whole for years but can't believe the governmental compensation comes any where near what the victim might have been making before the incident.

As others have said before, the reason to have insurance is not to protect yourself but to provide for the victim. A transfer from one to another can be considered a sale, even if no $ changed hands.

Here in the States there is business insurance specific to bike manufacturing, repairing and/or selling. Different types of coverage for each activity. Volume often ditermines the cost. I would consult your lawyer and insurance agent to learn the requirements in Canada

[Willie1]

I have to admit I haven't considered the need to support someone who is injured. I don't think I suggested anywhere that I wouldn't get the appropriate insurance.

In Canada, we are highly legislated, and things like insurance are legally mandated. One of our major differences with the US is the provision of health care. We do not pay for most services. It is actually things like sick notes that aren't covered, but its rare a doc charges for them.

In Canada, insurance isn't all its cracked up to be. I am in a law suit with the builder of my current house. He has insurance, but he is able to not put in the claim for the significant problems with the property, forcing me to sue his company. He owes me 1.3 million in actual damages. We cannot claim pain and suffering in Canada. The insurance company does not want to pay out here either.

I am assuming this all relates to me building something that fails under its intended use because of a design flaw or workmanship flaw, not the person who goes downhilling on their lightweight road bike.

[e-RICHIE]

Willie 1 -

There are a few cart before the horse issues being conflated here. Your being bit by the framebuilding bug and the fantasy you have with making these for others will take years to advance from the seedling stages through to baby steps, and to the point at which you are making dependable bicycles that you can allow others to use or buy. I would focus on the learning and worry about the business and politically correct chapters down the road. I'm a insurance and a being-a-responsible-corporate-citizen zealot, but in this conversation, you first have to build the frames, and then build them well, before the other issues merit too much concern atmo.

[Willie1]

This makes sense. No welds this week as I didn't consider none of the local welding suppliers stock or were interested in getting water soluble flux. I had to order from Henry James. Its all learning, even down to how and where to get the raw materials. This thread is being hijacked. I should move to a different thread. Would it be appropriate to do a blog documenting the steps of this project, whether it works out or not? It seems a lot of the people who get to the smoked out section are telling the story retrospectively. These are the success stories, like pro athletes. A real time or work in progress type blog might be interesting to refer to down the road for those with the fantasy.

[Alistair]

This makes sense. No welds this week as I didn't consider none of the local welding suppliers stock or were interested in getting water soluble flux. I had to order from Henry James. Its all learning, even down to how and where to get the raw materials. This thread is being hijacked. I should move to a different thread. Would it be appropriate to do a blog documenting the steps of this project, whether it works out or not? It seems a lot of the people who get to the smoked out section are telling the story retrospectively. These are the success stories, like pro athletes. A real time or work in progress type blog might be interesting to refer to down the road for those with the fantasy.

Sure, you should do a blog.

Back in the "golden age" (somewhere around the mid 2000's it seems to me), predominantly through the email list serve at Framebuilders.org, their blogs, and flickr, a lot of guys did exactly what you are proposing. Some have subsequently turned pro, and many have not, but their journey's were pretty well documented.

It's still going on, but not to the same extent, from my point of view anyway.

Good luck with your own journey through all this.

Alistair.

[e-RICHIE]

Sure, you should do a blog.

Back in the "golden age" (somewhere around the mid 2000's it seems to me), predominantly through the email list serve at Framebuilders.org, their blogs, and flickr, a lot of guys did exactly what you are proposing. Some have subsequently turned pro, and many have not, but their journey's were pretty well documented.

It's still going on, but not to the same extent, from my point of view anyway.

Good luck with your own journey through all this.

Alistair.

Alistair has pioneer status in this Internet era of framebuilding atmo. Listen to him and document your travels. I tried to
cull some of these a long while back and it's basically in semi-retirement mode since everyone's energies have spread out
or moved on, or both atmo.

How Frames Are Made | RICHARD SACHS CYCLES

[Dornbox]

****Ramble/Tangent ALERT****

This has been a great read for me and I think I can just about agree with every view here but I think this is one that I really identified with.

E-RICHIE Said "tools get in the way, <snip> sophisticated tools more so because the user is then (also) indentured to the tolerances that come with high end fixtures and measuring equipment."

Amen to that! It has been a long and extremely frustrating road for me trying to find the Zen within the unforgiving tight tolerances of high end fixtures durring my first year+ (just ask the guy who I purchased them from!).... In the end though, I love my fixtures and tooling/heavy metal and I look forward to the day when I can spend the time to build my own fixtures that work best for my process/way of thinking. However, for me personaly, files are primarily for tuning and special tasks and I personally couldn't imagine trying to meet every dedline this way. 95% of the time, I'd rather be behind a tourch and joing tubes to creat a bike frame rather than cutting custom lugs, filling fillets, or mitering tubes by hand. With my mills, I can bust out practice pieces quickly and accurately (the ease of practicing is what helps me build a better bike ATMO), miter a tube over and over if I choose to acieve an exact result, and all without tiring my arms. When I really want to spend time in the zen of shaping a frame, I pick up my files and build a special bike for a client, family member, or friend.

While I build my bikes with attention to detail as if they were going to be art, I really dream about riding them and while I'm building and that's my primary intent. For me, most of what I have in tooling fosters this. Do you need more than a file, torch, and a flat surface to do this... I don't think so. But at the end of the day, machines and fixturing help me focus on what I find to be important and to get it done quickly and accurately. As Eric and others have pointed out, as long as your expectations aren't missplaced or over inflated, the path you choose while persuing a frame building (or any other) endeavor is probably the right one... or close to it anyway.

PS I've been addicted to bikes, tools, and machines (and beer) my whole life and at 2 years old my son appears to be following the same path so it must be in the blood. Frank-I've noted your number! =) -Chris

[Dornbox]

And I completely agree with the sentiment that machines are not a replacement for craftsmanship or experience.

[ThomD]

Wow, did you hear it too? A thousand reverent voices read that excellent article, and whispered "if I could just have the same frame jig as Mr Sachs..."

I'm in a kind of neatherworld with Erik. I have all the tools, as do thousands of others, when you can get an electric drill that is cheaply made in china, and still get a millling machine for less than the cost of one of them, my only concern is how long it will last. But at the same time, when I look at what is involved in setting up my shop to "produce" frame parts, I still reach for the file.

I've served several kinds of apprenticeship over the years, working on a bare concrete floor sharpening Japanese tools in the 70s forward, my hands do what I want them to, though arthritis is encroaching. I find the frame thing is a little protectionist. So I am torn. I think people would benefit from learning scales rather than sampling, but at the end of the day there is also another agenda.

[ThomD]

Willie1- Good to hear that insurance is on your radar. But a question. Does the government support the victims to the level them enjoyed before an accident that looses them their ability to earn a living? Or are you referencing medical and minimual cost of living coverage? I have felt that Canada does a much better job at balancing the indivdual VS the society as a whole for years but can't believe the governmental compensation comes any where near what the victim might have been making before the incident.

As others have said before, the reason to have insurance is not to protect yourself but to provide for the victim. A transfer from one to another can be considered a sale, even if no $ changed hands.

Here in the States there is business insurance specific to bike manufacturing, repairing and/or selling. Different types of coverage for each activity. Volume often ditermines the cost. I would consult your lawyer and insurance agent to learn the requirements in Canada

Canada would pay medical, which in US case could easily be millions, It would not pay lost income. There would be a law suit as in the US, and it would seek to recover losses, it would not cover punitive damages, or deliver a windfall. But a lifetime of lost income and medical and facilitation, is a nut. Particularly for a young, active, and potentially wealthy person. The cost of getting that lawsuit to pre-trial settlement, is in the area of 400 000 dollars, and 5 years, for medium injury cases. Or was when I was in the biz in the late 90s.

Ultimately the real underlying model in either country is self-insurance. There are some industries that can write off major catastrophes like the gulf oil spill and keep on ticking. Bespoke frame building can't. If there is one major draw down on insurance, the insurance will be gone. This is a bad model, you have underpaid people pooling trivial amounts of money to set aside for the lost lifetime income of fancy people who can afford expensive frames. There is no pay your own way model for that. The main issue is to never make a bad frame. A secondary issue is to not have more assets than you have business.

[Willie1]

I am in a lawsuit with my ex home builder currently. I am out 1.3 million and am living in a house I legally do not have possession of, which requires demolition to make right (the cheapest solution.) The reality is neither insurance, nor the socialist state here are making any difference to me or my family. The insurance company claims the builder's incompetence is beyond the scope of the policy, and the builder claims the house is fine (two engineers disagree, one hired by each side). The builder changed his company name from .inc to .ltd, after he saw our evidence, and in the eyes of the law, these are different entities, meaning all current assets are not up for us to access. 500k in assets disappeared in the change of name. We are applying for a fraudulent preference claim, but this is difficult.

I am curious how many frame builders have been sued successfully in the past 20 years?