downsize the fantasy atmo -

[Dave Anderson]

Right
here.

Thanks, Craig!

Dave

[steve garro]

I use every damn tool in the shop almost every day and if someone hangs a coat or puts a cup on something it gets all tossed into the darkest farthest corner.
I love my mill, and I can bust a 90* miter in 45 seconds with a 14" bastard file.
I even have a total lifetime tool kit from an ENT doc in my shop and it gets used often for weird things like getting that spoke nip out of the rim.......now.
Sure you can hearth-braze but oxy-acteleyne is sooooooo much better.

I started metal work in a shop where a small tube was 2" x 1/4" thick.

Also, at UBI they tell you "all the tools are over there - use what you want, but ask to be shown how to use it"
But, they also say "what will you have when you go home?" So I and most people build totally with files, it's what I had and I built 50+ frames that way, but my shoulders like the mill, and that was before I was a cripple - I've had a hard life of manual labor.
Most people at UBI have no intent of being a frame building entity, they want to build one to tell their friends they did and enjoy the experience. Really, 90% of what gets said about UBI is from people who never set foot there.
- Garro.

[Dave Anderson]

I totally agree Steve. As Richard said, there is no right way or wrong way. Heck I don't use files to miter. I use a cut off wheel on a die grinder and a bench grinder..... My best friends in the framebuilding world have lots of tooling and related processes that work great for them. Like you, though, and Vulture and etc, they have been at it for decades and worked into their process and many tools were acquired over time. I think the original question or point to this thread was whether someone just starting out needs a shop full of expensive tooling, and where that idea comes from. I have no idea. Clearly its not coming from UBI. Maybe, like Vulture says, its what they see on the web. I also wonder if its because after building a frame or two, guys or gals realize how hard of work building frames is and think that tooling up will help make it quicker and easier, when the reality is, its hard work no matter how you cut your tubes.

In the end, its all good.

Dave

[steve garro]

When I started I had a jig, files, an AO setup, a vise...........not much more.
A hell of allot of bike assembly & maintenance tools, but no windows, only open holes with tarps.
- Garro.

[Dave Anderson]

When I started I had a jig, files, an AO setup, a vise...........not much more.
A hell of allot of bike assembly & maintenance tools, but no windows, only open holes with tarps.
- Garro.

+1.....

[Eric Estlund]

If there are myths to modern frame building, this is it- "think that tooling up will help make it quicker and easier".

It's all a matter of what you want to do. If I wanted to hire a guy or two and bang out small production runs of limited size bikes you can bet your shirt I'd be tooled to the teeth. But if a hobby guy is working one one at a time, or for people in our position who are choosing a different path from "production" (small scale, lots of detail, built one at a time and made to measure) then it just isn't necessary.

It's really about optimizing your set up for your needs. If mitering=welding time=paint=finishing in value adding and production time units then it makes sense to try to eek out speed at each and balance investment for dollars in. In my case, mitering and brazing are a small part of the time, and a relatively small part of where I see return. No need to spend more on my end to make those "more profitable". If a hobby builder has the scratch and space for 6 dedicated op horizontal mills, more power to em'.

Lean manufacturing is were it's at.

[steve garro]

Hand mitering S-band stays will eat your life away.
- Garro.

[MikeB]

I’ve read through this thread a couple times, and feel compelled to respond from the hobbyist perspective. I agree 100% with Eric, in that there is no right or wrong way to enter into the endeavor of frame building. I’m not sure where this is coming from, as three years ago when I was developing a strategy to build my first frames, there were just as many people on the web proclaiming that all you need is a used O/A setup, some files and a string, as there were pictures shops dripping with heavy metal and jigs.

Clearly most of the people in this forum have a lifetime of experience, and I have benefited greatly from their knowledge and ideas. What I dislike however, is the attitude sometimes displayed, that before building just one frame, a new builder should be required to hand file 1000 ST to BB junctions by hand as an apprentice before going on to the next step in the process. Maybe that’s a little dramatic, but you get my point.

For a hobbyist, fostering some machining skills, and joinery beyond that of thin walled tubing, is something beneficial outside that of frame building and a desired skillset to have for the handyman in us all. For an entrepreneur, this equates to skills which could build fixtures that save time, increase accuracy, and save material, all affecting the bottom line of your business.

In summary, I agree that everyone should understand the procedures of bicycle construction, and an understating of materials and how they work together, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Understanding the process using the tools you have at hand, however expensive they are, is what makes your end product better. If you have the means, either as a hobbyist or new business owner, you shouldn’t feel uneasy about not following in the footsteps of builders who started three-four decades ago. Only you can determine your path.

[progetto]

[QUOTE=MikeB;364301]. What I dislike however, is the attitude sometimes displayed, that before building just one frame, a new builder should be required to hand file 1000 ST to BB junctions by hand as an apprentice before going on to the next step in the process. Maybe that’s a little dramatic, but you get my point.

I don't think these comments are directed at the hobby builder doing a frame for ones self, but the hobby builder selling to the public without the experience to know the pitfalls.

[SPOKE]

I'm just in the initial phase of gathering some of the equipment I WANT to have to build frames. I doubt that I ever build for a living but you never know..... What I do know is I've been in the machining/tooling industry since about 1982. I currently sell cutting tools for one of the largest tooling manufacturers in the world, Kennametal. I am a tool junkie and like to have nice stuff to work with. For now I have a very nice Tig machine & AO setup and will soon purchase an Anvil jig and I'd really like a good size surface plate for alignment purposes. The lathe, mill, & saw will come later. These are not needed at this time IMO. I'm pretty good with a file. I just want to practice right now. I also plan to spend some time learning from a couple great builders I know and respect.
cheers....SPOKE

[e-RICHIE]

i wrote the text linked in the OP so will add this: my POVs are directed at folks who want to be in the trade. if a reader has no interest in the this, i'd have to reign in my involvement in the conversation because i cannot imagine doing this as a hobby owing to the liability involved. note: if someone else ever rides the frames you make, even if you give them away, it's not a hobby. my observation is that many appear to associate tooling and machinery with need and even improved quality. i wrote many, not all. since the beginning of the message board era, there have been threads about what fixtures to buy, and how to drill a granite table so that a bb post can be fitted, and all things in between. as someone who has been in many of these conversations, it appears that the typical inquiry comes from someone with little to no fab experience. so you have to accept that if the questions are coming online, and the subject centers on a how-to or a "the right tool for the job", then the replies probably include a bit of what i penned. another way to look at it is, if you haven't done the job, or done it over at least a few times, the right tool for the job is to learn how to do the job inside out and backwards. and that includes the prep work and sub-assemblies of said job if they exist. i equate some of these issues with apps; folks want to download them so that information will be delivered instantly. and the threads i have followed include a bit of this. if the cat gets the tool, or the machine, or the fixture, or the _______ , then his framebuilding will be easier and his frames better as a result. that's the disconnect for me.

[datas_brother]

I would love to go buy tons of tools. What stops my is my very sensible wife. When I started (officially) 2 years ago she said here's 1500 EUR. If you need more, earn it. I bought materials and paid for insurance from that. Everything else has to be paid for through orders. I find that not only a good way to only buy what you need but also good business sense. I hate credit and don't believe anything less than a house should be financed (not even a car) and certainly not tools. They need to pay for themselves i. e. make the process faster or better. Still being new, I find faster and better comes more from repetition than new tools.

[suicideking]

Didnt read the article, however, I can't imagine someone with aspiritions of getting into the trade or not,giving it up due to ANYONE else's life experiences or expectations. There isn't a single guy out there that was told by their high school guidance counselor to be a bike builder and they still did it. Why would anyone telling them now to quit be any different?

[e-RICHIE]

Didnt read the article, however, I can't imagine someone with aspiritions of getting into the trade or not,giving it up due to ANYONE else's life experiences or expectations. There isn't a single guy out there that was told by their high school guidance counselor to be a bike builder and they still did it. Why would anyone telling them now to quit be any different?

i am not sure what this ^ means. but everyone who makes bicycles, whether the direction came from a guidance counselor or not, learned from someone and/or someplace. where i come into the conversation is that there's an entire legion of folks asking about the trade and the barrier of entry, and all things related, who use the internet to learn and for research. those of us who have traditionally replied to these questions going back to the origins of the list serve days are not only advising, we're enabling. my points of view are based on this atmo.

[einreb]

Its a little tough to filter through the e-richie/ATMO glasses sometimes.

As for the topic... I think that to some extent tool selection is a skill that has to be learned over time like a half round bastard on a tube. Folks listen to 2 years of ATMO to get an MBA, but until they eff some stuff up and live it, they aren't ready to run a business. Or something like that.

-Bernie

[GSmith]

Making a bike that performs well and is safe is different than running a sustainable business. Both require skills that can only be acquired through experience and time, and it's not enough to have one without the other, especially if you are a one person show.

Reminds me of two quotes:

"this business would be great if you didn't have to make the damn things" Lee Iacocca

"everybody's got plans... until they get hit" Mike Tyson

[EricKeller]

those of us who have traditionally replied to these questions going back to the origins of the list serve days are not only advising, we're enabling.

for a certain type of person you are an enabler, but mostly you improve the quality. As long as Nova/HJ/JoeB sell tubes, the enabling is done. When I started we had no internet, just the Proteus Handbook and Talbot. There were people that bought a bike's worth of tubing and never built them into a bike. Some subset of those people would have built a bike if the internet was around.

[MDEnvEngr]

I'm an engineer with 25 years of building ships and powerplants behind me. This frame building thing is just the latest in a long string of projects: building boats, restoring houses and cars and tractors, etc. Hobby builder or low production one man shop..whatever, that is me. It's not my primary source of income and that in itself takes all of the pressure off. I do it because I like to work with my hands, I like to experiment with design. I like the fact that the "projects" are small: design, fabricate, finish, deliver (as opposed to engineering work which ends up a lot like shovelling the 5hit against the tide every day).

I have a surface plate that I bought from a pattern maker. That and my vice is the center of the shop. My "jig" is a set of fixtures I made myself that set up on the plate.

I was taught by my Pop and various bosses over time that one of the golden rules is:

Always let the process drive the tools, do not let the tools drive the process.

I'm still waiting for this sell off of neat-o fixturing though! After three years of frames, I think I could trust myself not to get overwhelmed by a nice Anvil jig. But the straight up price is way beyond my means.

Cheers!

Bob
Belltown Bikes LLC
East Hampton, cT

[EricKeller]

I'm still waiting for this sell off of neat-o fixturing though! After three years of frames, I think I could trust myself not to get overwhelmed by a nice Anvil jig. But the straight up price is way beyond my means.

the sell-off is ongoing, but there are just as many wannabes as there ever have been and they are in competition with you for the used stuff. I have noticed that the listings last a few more minutes than they used to last though.

[FrankTheWelder]

Used machines, buy, sell, trade
802 376 6639