the re-tool thread has resurfaced another annoyance that i have regarding fit. imho, most unfit cyclists don't sit far enough behind the BB. the result is that too much weight is cantilevered over the front end of the machine and the unfit athlete doesn't have the strength to sustain the position with comfort. the common solution(s) are to shorten the reach by moving the saddle forward yet some more(argh!), shorten the stem and raise the bar. i am convinced that this has caused the epidemic of shopping carts that pass as bicycles that are so prevalent today. a whole different world opens up once you settle in behind the BB.