Hello, my name is Demetri...

[Demetri Tsarouchas]

Hello, I've started a bicycle/powder coating business a few years back. I belong to a pretty popular powder coating forum, that really helps people out, from beginners, to professionals, a really positive atmosphere. The next logical step in my business and as a passion, would be to build bicycle frames.

Not sure if people here are familiar with Paul Brodie? He's a pretty famous Canadian frame builder, and I had the pleasure of seeing one of his frames, that a customer brought in to powder coat. It was a mountain bike frame, that was brazed together with out lugs, and I figured this would be a way I would like to get into building frames.

I also had the pleasure of speaking to Paul Brodie in person, and he told me to get an oxy-acetylene torch with an inline flux, something I cant really find. He also has a course, yet it's too far away and expensive for me.

So at this point, im looking for a forum to help me get started, I heard this was a good place, yet I cant see any topics on frame building. Ive tried other forums, like frameforum, yet from what I hear, the guy who runs it went mad.

If people can helo me out, I would appreciate it, thanks.

[sonny]

pm too tall or e-richie
they'll get you sorted

in the meantime
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f15/
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f10/

[the bottle ride]

Brodie made great bikes in the late 80's early 90's- if you were to have an influence in the bike world, that is a pretty good one to start with.

Welcome!

(There is an intro/say hello section...aslo, there are a ton of super smart folks here on the forum who are mucho cool when it comes to making bikes...so you found the right place)

[Demetri Tsarouchas]

Thanks sonny, dont know how i missed the framebuilding section.

Also, the bottle ride, im glad you know of Brodie, I wish you could see how that frame was brazed, it was something I was showing all the mechanics. I think his course is more geared towards a fast frame building crash course, it's not a bad idea to take it, it's just a beginning I think, rather the end. Also, I live 4600km away, so it would be around $4000 to take the course.

He seems like a really nice guy, I might just learn a few things here first, and then send him a frame or follow up with him after, for more intermediate lessons, or to know what he thinks.

I will post in the proper section now, thankyou.

[Demetri Tsarouchas]

pm too tall or e-richie
they'll get you sorted

in the meantime
Friday Night Lights
The VSalon Framebuilder Forum

I see it's locked, so I assume I have to pm one of the two guys to ask for permission to post there?

[bellman]

Hey Demetri, welcome.

It's always good to have another powdercoat resource around, I'd love a link to the P-coat forum you spoke of.

There are a few other places to ask frame building questions out there as well, heres another popular one; Frame Building - Mountain Bike Review
and another; Framebuilders | Google Groups
and yet one more; Framebuilders
Look forward to seeing your progress

Jake

[Demetri Tsarouchas]

Hey, I belong to Powder365, my user name is www(dot)breakingaway(dot)ca (like the movie, also my company page, which needs to be re-done, badly)

Perhaps I'm missing something here, from the sounds of it, I should sit back and grovel at the feet of established frame builders? Then perhaps I can ask questions and post topics?

When I started powder coating, I spent a lot of money making stupid mistakes. I was proud to have made my own convection oven for curing, and burn off oven for stripping paint, and doing things on my own, yet my technique and skill only improved when I joined a forum and could ask questions and post topics. Go to the forums, and you'll see people who just bought the shitty $89 eastwood powder coating guns, getting help by people who use ITW Gemas, or Wagners, or Nordson, ranging in price of $5000-$7000. People who do it for a hobby, getting help by people who charge thousands of dollars, doing custom work for a living.

We were all new once upon of time, if this place is an insiders club, then im not interested.

Thanks, for the links, perhaps ill try these forums.

[bellman]

Whoa there bucko, I wasn't sending you off. What you described about your powder forum is exactly the way the framebuilding community works as well. The links to the other forums was the first bit of framebuilding information that was shared with you here, Sorry you took it that way. Not everyone posts everywhere and these other forums hold several metric-fuck-tons of information from dozens and dozens of builders. It's pretty tough to ask a new question these days.

Thanks for the linky to the powder forum and your user name. I've recently built an oven in the past year for heat treating AL frames and It should double as a powder oven nicely when I have the time to look into it.

Cheers,
jake

[Demetri Tsarouchas]

Powder365.com serves as a store as well, great help. They sell powder as little as .5lbs, so its good for custom work, and colour selection without having to buy 50lbs of powder.

Sorry, I wasn't attacking you, or what you said, on the contrary, I really appreciate it. I plan to follow up on the links, and join those forums.

I'm just asking, based on what ive read so far, if this place is good for new people to ask questions. I dont mind lurking, yet I have specific questions that I need answers to, so far, I cant post on the framebuilding forums.

Laslty, ive asked numerous welders, but, have you ever heard of an inline flux for a oxy-acetylene torch? I have flux paste, good for 1800f and a regular oxy-acetylene torch, but this frame builder told me I should get one with an inline flux...

[Erik B]

Gasflux - We introduced "The Flux is in the Flame"

too tall or e-richie or perhaps one of the other moderators will have to set up your forum permissions in order for you to be able to post in the framebuilders forum, but you need to PM them so they know you would like in

[Demetri Tsarouchas]

Gasflux - We introduced "The Flux is in the Flame"

too tall or e-richie or perhaps one of the other moderators will have to set up your forum permissions in order for you to be able to post in the framebuilders forum, but you need to PM them so they know you would like in

Awesome, I got off the phone with them, they also sell high temp flux as well. $500 is a bit much, but considering I thought I would have to buy a new torch, I guess I shouldn't complain.

[fixednwinter]

Thanks for talking about Paul Brodie, Demetri. I had a custom, filet brazed frame made for me by Mr. Brodie back in '88. Had it painted black and yellow with bats. WTB flared drop bars. Took it on multiple tours in Europe, the Canadian Rockies and Asia. 26" wheels with slick road tires, that bike never let me down. Owned it for 16 years until I finally gave it to a friend. It was still being ridden and in good shape the last time I saw it a couple of years ago.

Thanks for reminding of the great rides on a Brodie frame.

[Demetri Tsarouchas]

Thanks for talking about Paul Brodie, Demetri. I had a custom, filet brazed frame made for me by Mr. Brodie back in '88. Had it painted black and yellow with bats. WTB flared drop bars. Took it on multiple tours in Europe, the Canadian Rockies and Asia. 26" wheels with slick road tires, that bike never let me down. Owned it for 16 years until I finally gave it to a friend. It was still being ridden and in good shape the last time I saw it a couple of years ago.

Thanks for reminding of the great rides on a Brodie frame.

I'm glad people here know of him and appreciate his work. I wish I took pics of the frame when it was stripped, just to show his work. Truly flawless work, and of course a really friendly and helpful guy.

[e-RICHIE]

i'll move this to the frame section and also reset Demetri Tsarouchas' posting permissions atmo.

[Demetri Tsarouchas]

i'll move this to the frame section and also reset Demetri Tsarouchas' posting permissions atmo.

Great, now the pressure is on not to ask retarded questions...

Well, for everyone here, hi!

I'm a bicycle mechanic and powder coater, and run my own shop based on these two loves, also I've done brazing before, nothing structural, just cosmetic stuff, like filling dents, etc. I would like to think this might prepare me for the little adventure I will undertake, but this all seems a bit intimidating.


I spoke to a frame builder name Paul Brodie, gave me a few tips to get started, yet I would like to confirm a few things with you guys first.

-I have an oxy-acetylene torch, will buy the add on by gas flux soon, to make it an inline flux torch. I will also buy there paste as well, 2200f, I assume I should still apply this on, even if I don't use lugs in my construction ( want to braze luggless frames).

-I was told to order tubing from Nova cycles, they apparently have decent stuff, that I can buy with out worrying about the price too much.

-I found tubemiter.exe, yet for the down tube, where it connects to the BB, how do I miter that properly, since it needs to by cut for the BB, and also the seat tube?

-For design of the frame, I assume people here use Bikecad? Is there any other programs people recommend?

-A jig, I would like to make one, preferably one that holds everything in place before I braze, can someone refer me to a link for something like this? I saw this on instructables, yet not sure what people think of it here. The simplest bicycle framebuilding jig I could come up with...

If there's anything else you guys can recommend, or any links, I would appreciate that as well.

Thanks for all your help!

EDIT: As you all can tell, I'm trying to research things outside of this forum, and try to confirm with you guys, or ask for opinions on things I cant find. Hopefully, in an effort to be more informed and not take up your time with inane questions.

[Eric Estlund]

Hi, Demetri-

Head over to the frame builders list serve (now a Google Group) that bellman linked to. If you use the search function you'll get pages and pages of info to these early types of questions with answers from lots of folks and their varied methods. That isn't to chase you from here- but it's a great base of reading that will help you figure out where your first steps will take you.

A couple of tidbits from what you have posted thus far:
- An inline fluxer is great- I own and use one. But it isn't essential, and the bright green flame can actually make learning to braze a little harder. With decent rod and good paste flux (Gasflux or Cycle Design are both great, and readily available) you can both learn and make great bikes. Lots of guys go without the inline units- don't feel like you need to pony up the money to get started.
- Same with a frame fixture. There are pages of info about building without fixtures on the forums linked above. It's a great tool, but not essential to building straight, quality bikes.
-BikeCad, Auto Cad, etc are all excellent tools. I think there is something to be said for doing at least the first few with good old paper and pen at full scale. It will help you see how changes on one place drive changes elsewhere, and can also be a handy template when mitering/ checking for jig less building. Search for "keeping miters in phase", "hand mitering", etc to find more info.

Many of the builders on this forum have posted at length on frame forums, the frame list, MTBR, etc.

Welcome to Vsalon, and frame building.

[Mr_Rafi]

As a pretty new builder myself, I found the Paterek manual a invaluable resource for one person's step by step process to build a bicycle frame. He uses a fair amount of specialized tooling and jigs, but as far as understanding a process, with background information and pictures really helpful. In combination with the internets, and working with a local frame builder, it makes a lot of sense. Note that he is teaching you his process, and it is obviously not the be all and end all, but it is pretty good reading. The Talbot manual is good too, I know that there was a link floating around here recently to the entire manual online.

[Demetri Tsarouchas]

Thanks for the help, I downloaded the mid 80's version of Paterek manual, he was giving it away for free. 1/4 done it already, and wow, the details and explanations for things.

I don't mind reading things and then posting here after, I just want to belong to a solid group, so that I don't get bad advice. I want to start as a hobbyist, yet I dont want to waste money on tools, that I would throw away once I decide to do it as a professional. Or pick up bad techniques on "do-it-yourself" sites.

By the way Eric, I like your web page, and the name, i too have the same philosophy of winter time cycling. I guess in Canada, where it's -20 to -30 C, its not a popular thought, especially for customers....

[wbarocsi]

Demetri,
An inline fluxer is a great tool for production. We have one, but if it broke or went missing it wouldn't be a big deal. There are a great many pieces of equipment that are more important.
Start with tools that are not framebuilding specific. You may find that framebuilding isn't for you, or is just a hobby. In which case, tools that are essentially production aids are not necessary.
Good files, tube blocks, a great vice and bench, good emery, an aircraft torch with a selection of tips, good hack saw blades and hole saws, 123 blocks and threaded rod, and v blocks are essentials.
Get these way before the inline fluxer. Start with thicker, inexpensive tubes, perhaps build a mountain bike, and develop your skills. Get good bronze and flux, not the welding store stuff*(note- biased sorce).
Rent or buy the Paterek videos, make friends with YouTube, and ask questions after a bit of research, so you'll get more valuable answers.

Cheers,
Wade Barocsi
CycleDesignUSA.com