did the terrorist win?

[dave1215]

yes osama bin laden is dead
but at what cost ---> http://www.nationaljournal.com/magaz...years-20110505
did we take the bait and overreact?

[Too Tall]

Love yah bubbala.

My challenge to anyone who replies.

Don't give me a reason to delete the thread.

Me? I support our military, endorse our presidents and FAWKING HATE WAR.

[Saab2000]

I think the argument can easily be made that this whole thing has worked out better than the terrorists every imagined possible. The other day I was listening to NPR and there was a discussion of OBL and how he had given interviews to journalists years ago and expressed great satisfaction that the Afghanistan war had been at least partially responsible for bankrupting the Soviet Union.

History does repeat itself. That is not a partisan statement I don't think and it is not meant to be one.

But our efforts to take on terrorism are in fact putting a strain on the economy and budget deficits, etc.

[joosttx]

I work in a group where the i am the only one of 2 who is not a baby boomers. Interestingly, the bb's saw the killing of obl a huge victory attributing it to an example of american stick-to-it-ive-ness. For myself and the other non-bb we felt that it was a victory but just a symbolic one. Our hunt for olb had moved on to more pressing issues on the war of terror, such as our devaluing dollar, getting our boys home and security of oil in a ever more insecure ME. If we had gotten obl 5 years ago, then it would of been a victory. Bb's said our view was based in our instant-gratifcation culture. We said the bb's were just myopic.

Interesting....bc in heated discussions generational bias can really seem like we are against each other when we not.

[the bottle ride]

As someone who worked in the towers, had my step father work in the towers and lost friends I was really disappointed in the gerneral frenzied response- to celebrate murder, although warranted, was poor form and shows that the mob is Rome. And I am not OK with that.

When did we start treating death as a cheering opportunitiy?

I tend to agree with Saab- we had to go after them to prove a point, but it cost us dearily. And that worked to the benifit of those countries/peoples who hate us.

There is a reason we have the most aircraft carriers in the world.

[Chad]

Getting OBL is a great thing, the war in Afghanistan is not a great thing, but are they the same thing? I don't believe they are, they may have started out to be, but are no longer. We don't send that many men to get one man, as you can see it took a relatively small number of soldiers and a lot of time and intelligence gathering. We won't be packing up and leaving any time soon, as the entire mission is not to simply find OBL, it's to root out the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Now should we be, my opinion is no, but I don't get to make such decisions.

[chasea]

Celebrating a death is wrong; no matter whose side you're on. And celebrating the death of one man, while ignoring the freedoms we've given up in trade, is just plain ignorant. Our rights are being swept under the very rug we're dancing on.

And that's all I'm going to say about that.

Sorry, Toots, if that's over the line. Just delete it and join me over in the AOW for some fine, upbeat conversation about luxury goods.

[EDS]

The U.S.A is like Charlie Sheen - Winning!

[dave1215]

... support our military, endorse our presidents and FAWKING HATE WAR.

right on sir!

how evolved is vsalon
that we conduct off topic discussions
about sensitive but important subjects
without digging into polarizing positions?

is this place civil and constructive, or what?

[ElvisMerckx]

If their primary objective on 11 Sept 01 was to have Americans inconvenienced at airports, they might have won -- but that's silly. As to some of their supposed primary objectives, well, Americans certainly aren't living under sharia law, our support of Israel is unwavering, and we have more troops than ever in the ME. Could al Qaida have considered cost into their misguided and twisted calculus? Perhaps, but doubtful.

US objectives on 12 Sept 01, as I recall, were to hunt down those responsible and to prevent such tragedies from occurring again. Sure it's expensive, but I'd argue we're achieving our objectives, ie, winning.

[XR2]

The War on Terror is a bigger farce than the War on Drugs. We have lost civil rights granted by the Constitution and are no safer than before,in fact IMO we are in more danger than ever. There are no winners in war only victors. These dirtbags (now for the contradiction) should be taken care of covertly by those we employ for such things.

Celebrating his death by burning couches and cheering in the streets is no different than these people who we condemned.

It's difficult to fully express my feelings about this disaster w/o writing a book.

[e-RICHIE]

is this place civil and constructive, or what?

very atmo -
it has its own V place approval label...

[ron l edmiston]

Love yah bubbala.

My challenge to anyone who replies.

Don't give me a reason to delete the thread.

Me? I support our military, endorse our presidents and FAWKING HATE WAR.

kudo tall man ---
to all my velo pals & buds --- next time in DC -- visit arlington cemetary, viet nam wall -- then visit the holocaust museum & in the end look in lincoln's eyes & read ..
this is not a perfect country with perfect people, but sure as hell beats the alternatives ...
i hate war too..

ronnie

[54ny77]

as someone who watched a wall of dust screaming up the road in my general direction on that fateful morning (which was driven by the collapse of my former office in wtc #7), i have two comments.

1) the first one i'll keep to myself.
2) the second one, and perhaps the more constructive one, is that the article you posted is thought provoking. i would offer that the modern conflict in fighting terrorism here & abroad is unlike anything we've ever encountered in terms of immediacy, scale and consequence. it's almost as though the fight is not entirely about the right there & then, but rather in preventing the not-yet-happened. how do you defeat an enemy (including a state or nation) who swears on his or her life to kill you each and every day or die trying? it was schwarzkopf or powell (i forget) who responded to that creed by saying something along the lines of, "oblige them." a practical response, really, and what other response is there?

hard to see how or where it all ends, and without endless vigilance in keeping the really bad "what-if" from happening.

seeing things like bicycle racing in foreign lands, or cars going around in circles here in the states, gives me temporary thoughts to all being well in the world.

but the news reports tell otherwise.

[edoz]

I think the only true winners in this deal are running companies like Haliburton, Exxon and Blackwater.

[Ben]

As someone who worked in the towers, had my step father work in the towers and lost friends I was really disappointed in the gerneral frenzied response- to celebrate murder, although warranted, was poor form and shows that the mob is Rome. [...]

I'm terribly sorry for your loss. But I have a nit to pick. I've seen the word "murder" used several times as a descriptor for the killing of bin Laden, and it drives me nuts every time I see it. Whatever you think of the killing of Osama bin Laden, it certainly was not "murder" by any definition. Particularly if it was "warranted," as you say.

Celebrating his death by burning couches and cheering in the streets is no different than these people who we condemned.

Respectfully, that's absurd. You'd have to have a pretty warped moral compass to equate (a) killing the leader of a terrorist group that has murdered thousands of innocent people of all faiths and nationalities, and declared war on an entire civilization, and (b) killing a secretary for the crime of going to work in the wrong building. Even if you think celebrating the death of bin Laden is wrong, I hope you believe that celebrating the death of innocent people is worse.

[gregl]

They won as soon as we started trading in our civil rights for greater "security".

I was in Germany when the 9/11 attacks occurred. When I came home a few weeks later, the security precautions were extraordinary. An elderly German gentlemen standing next to me in a security line remarked "The gansters have won". I couldn't help but agree. It's only gotten worse with the combination of legal BS (Patriot Act) and jingoistic rhetoric.

-Greg

[joosttx]

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King

[ElvisMerckx]

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King

I see your MLK, and raise you a Nuge:
"Let’s remember now more than ever that there are voodoo-intoxicated people in this world who hate America and all things good and will do whatever they can to kill as many Americans as possible. Knowing that, the smart move is to whack them first." - Ted Nugent

[joosttx]

I see your MLK, and raise you a Nuge:
"Let’s remember now more than ever that there are voodoo-intoxicated people in this world who hate America and all things good and will do whatever they can to kill as many Americans as possible. Knowing that, the smart move is to whack them first." - Ted Nugent

The only way you can raise a nuge over a mlk is when comparing the hotness of their wives.