Automobiles

[Saab2000]

the slight difference in weight distribution and resulting increase in understeer could be addressed the same way you addressed the understeer in every GTI from mk1 until the second to last generation when they started putting a bmw style rear suspension in them.

in any case the MKiv gtis that i had handled better than any front wheel drive car i'd ever driven- better than most rear wheel drive cars i've driven. most of this was because i did what that genius magician Dick Shine told me to do. the secret to getting these things to out handle anything in the world- was reasonable dampers that don't lower the car and allow it to make use of it's designed suspension travel- then you put a massive rear sway bar in the thing and if you still need it to understeer less- you take out the front sway bar. it'd get up on three wheels while doing it- but both my 24v vr6 GTI and my 1.8t GTI were front wheel drive cars that came mighty close to almost oversteering. They were just about perfect handling cars. I guarantee you that I could drive either of those cars around an auto cross track faster than any car that size or larger- no matter what that car was....as long as we all had the same tires!

I believe you. For me it doesn't really matter, but for many it does.

I'll never take my car to a track other than to sit in the parking lot while I'm watching others drive around the track. For me, the overall precision and fun factor of the GTI as a street legal go cart are enough. So take my comments on understeer with a grain of salt. It's rare when I can feel the push though there are times when taking a freeway on ramp it's quite evident. That said, I don't really need oversteer there either.

For me the joy of the GTI is the point-and-shoot nature of the steering and the responsiveness of the drivetrain in daily driving.

[Blue Jays]

My sense is that I wish a vehicle to perform well upon delivery. I also aim to preserve the new car factory warranty.
My preference is to not have to add tower braces, change sway bars, or upgrade suspension immediately upon receipt.
It is one thing if the car is a few years old and in need of a "freshening" yet totally different if it is still brand new!

[jerk]

My sense is that I wish a vehicle to perform well upon delivery. I also aim to preserve the new car factory warranty.
My preference is to not have to add tower braces, change sway bars, or upgrade suspension immediately upon receipt.
It is one thing if the car is a few years old and in need of a "freshening" yet totally different if it is still brand new!

all of the cars i mentioned behave wonderfully upon delivery. the minor modifications i mentioned certainly made the cars even more enjoyable for spirited driving on public roads but were certainly by no means required to call the car "great handling". swapping struts and doing roll bars doesn't effect warranties by law on anything other than the part they replaced or if a failure can be proven to have been caused by the replacement part.

most people don't modify their cars- but then again most people don't track their cars. for me- i just like to dikc with stuff and personalize things and make them better. in the case of my volkswagons- i got spoiled because my first one- a mki gti was built by Dick Shine as the ultimate street legal hot hatch - every volkswagon after that was an attempt to equal that car's amazing handling ability. (never quite successfully i might add- the balance and weight of that thing coupled with its perfect steering rack- the super light panasport wheels with fancy go fast tires- the momo steering wheel that was small enough to use wearing handcuffs- coupled with the SRSVW suspension work- made that thing pretty perfect at speeds below 80mph.

[rwsaunders]

Supercharged no less and the gent driving it had to be 6'-4"...essentially he was his own roll bar.

[72gmc]

^^^ and it’s so happy!

[Blue Jays]

I am somewhat puzzled by the arrival of three-row luxury station wagons and SUVs.
My sense is a buyer seeking to carry maximum passengers would opt for a minivan.

Why wouldn't manufacturers make the three-row seating an available option?
One would think many buyers would prefer a flatter, taller, and bigger cargo area.

[becomingblue]

I am somewhat puzzled by the arrival of three-row luxury station wagons and SUVs.
My sense is a buyer seeking to carry maximum passengers would opt for a minivan.

Mini vans, no matter how much they are gussied up, do not convey luxury or probably even status.  Course, back in the day, neither did station wagons.  Which the mini van replaced.  

[slwrnu]

slightly different take, but I had a VW Caravelle for quite a while. It was one of the last 2.5 diesels you could get in Europe. It was not a driving thrill, but you could configure the rear 2 rows so that young children could hunker down on overnight trips - importantly the seat belts were secured to the seats so passengers could recline safely. Excellent vehicles. Not cheap to buy but fairly cheap to run. When the time came to sell i researched prices and advertised it for a sensible number. Depreciation was minimal. A dealer came with his mechanic who checked it out. We agreed a very modest discount, he just wanted it for his family's use, and he drove it away. His wife sent me a message a few days later saying how pleased she was.

[Blue Jays]

"...Minivans, no matter how much they are gussied up, do not convey luxury or probably even status..."

Understood and agreed. My sense is that if I truly needed to carry 7-8 people then a SUV wouldn't be my main choice.
The vehicle that I feel is the "gold standard" for carrying people is a well-optioned Honda Odyssey minivan. It is beyond plush. So nice.

Drivers who carry a friend and otherwise haul bicycles, golf clubs, camping gear, and skis...I would figure they would *not* want third-row seating gobbling-up valuable inside storage capacity that is virtually never utilized.

Much like sunroofs/moonroofs...I would be happy if deleting third-row seating was a no-cost configuration change.

[Rich S]

Never thought I'd see one of these on the road. I was late to Christmas dinner because I stopped to drool over it. Had it been a Stratos I may have cancelled Christmas altogether.

IMG_20191225_125750363.jpg IMG_20191225_125815890.jpg IMG_20191225_125737769.jpg

[AngryScientist]

Understood and agreed.
The vehicle that I feel is the "gold standard" for carrying people is a well-optioned Honda Odyssey minivan.

.

+1.

Further to that, even if not carrying a bunch of passengers, the ody is pretty much the ultimate vehicle. i can carry full sheets of plywood/drywall; have slept in the van, carried multiple bikes upright inside, fit a dozen boyscouts, etc. it does it all. drives pretty well also, at least compared to some of the first gen minivans.

status? who cares! if my mini van projects my status as "practical dad" - i'm cool with that. :)

[Bobonli]

Yes! We’ve had an Odyssey in one form or another for the past 12 years. It gets more work carrying stuff than people. Before kids, it would be our gear closet and warm changing room when skiing or climbing. Now it hauls stuff from Lowe’s and IKEA. The only downside is that it doesn’t handle that well on very snowy surfaces, which is where we tend to need the carrying capacity.

[dgaddis]

Didn't I recently see the Odyssey on a list of least reliable vehicles? I remember being surprised by that because it is so popular and well liked, and, ya know, it's a Honda.

Ah, found it :: Cars that are least reliable for 218 - Business Insider

Tho it's not on the most recent list :: 1 Least Reliable Cars - Consumer Reports

[Blue Jays]

Years ago a substantial number of Honda Odyssey vehicles had transmission issues.
It appears that issue is successfully fixed and thankfully resides squarely in the past.

Having been a passenger in a loaded Honda Odyssey with all the options...it is truly plush and very quiet.
Were my lifestyle be that I often needed to safely carry lots of people, it would be my hands-down choice.

Given the inherent passenger comfort of minivans, the notion of three-row SUVs baffles me.
I test drove a well-optioned Lincoln Aviator and it is sweet...yet would NOT wish to be in last row.

I really wish they would discard that silly "perch" and allow that space to be used for luggage, bicycles, and other "stuff" needing carrying. :-)

[AngryScientist]

My ody is the lowest trim level available, on purpose. i specifically wanted manual sliding doors, no infotainment system, monitors or any of that. It's all that stuff that fails after 10 years, and it's what is called out in the reliability report dustin reports above.

i keep my vehicles forever and do all of the work/maintenance myself. the least amount of tech is what i'm after. give me a solid engine and transmission, and i'll keep the vehicle on the road.

with regard to the ody trans, frequent fluid changes are absolutely necessary for the longevity of the transmission. i change out about 1G every other oil change, with synthetic transmission fluid.

[Blue Jays]

"...It's all that stuff that fails after 10 years, and it's what is called out in the reliability report dustin reports above. I keep my vehicles forever and do all of the work/maintenance myself. the least amount of tech is what i'm after. Give me a solid engine and transmission, and I'll keep the vehicle on the road..."

This sentiment is the same reason I am so steadfastly against sunroofs/moonroofs in contemporary vehicles.
They are just an absurd gizmo that will almost certainly fail "down the road" at a truly inconvenient time.
Good on you for being able to make vehicles last a good long time and get a full service life from them. Bravo!

[Lionel]

5000 miles bath. This car is incredible. It's been cold and wet in the bay area, got to fully respect it with the Cup2 tires in these conditions or you are dead.

[Bruce Day]

35 year old Mercedes with 250,000 miles and still going strong. I do almost all my own work on this , my bikes and as much work on my airplane as permitted.

[robin3mj]

I am somewhat puzzled by the arrival of three-row luxury station wagons and SUVs.
My sense is a buyer seeking to carry maximum passengers would opt for a minivan.

Why wouldn't manufacturers make the three-row seating an available option?
One would think many buyers would prefer a flatter, taller, and bigger cargo area.

My brother is about to have his third kid and they have a three row Tahoe and about to buy a second three row SUV. As his older (wiser?) brother I’ve been advising him not to buy a new car until he has to schlep three small kids in and out of that Tahoe for a material period of time. We had three kids under 2.5 years when we bought our Sienna and I can’t imagine not having a van ever again.

Contrary to others opinions here (which also fully make sense), we went for a relatively loaded model precisely because we don’t put a crazy amount of miles on it and plan to drive it into the ground. I’d rather pay to get the power sliding doors fixed in year nine if we’re going to keep it four more years after that, than not have had them at all. By the time the rear screen craps out, our kids will probably all have iPads chipped straight into their brains anyway. And second row captains chairs are nice to cart around a full house when the grandparents come to visit, etc.

The SUV mindset baffles me. Once you move to the burbs and have multiple kids, there’s only so much street cred you’re ever going to be able to get back, and it’s not going to come from the stuff you buy.

[Bruce Day]

My 32 year old son is getting married and is talking about moving up from his Honda Accord to an SUV of some type. SUVs are cool , minivans are not. SUVs are adventure, macho and rugged like the owner. Minivans are going to the grocery store, the kids to soccer and carrying the floppy dog. That’s the image.