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Thread: Automobiles

  1. #6921
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    Default Re: Automobiles

    Toyota also has huge resources relative to a lot of car makers along with years of development in hybrid tech, including LeMans prototype race cars. I read last week that Mazda is going to introduce a CX-50 hybrid with Toyota power. This causes me to think that theyíre charging for more product as Jorn says, but also from a powerful market position.

  2. #6922
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    Default Re: Automobiles

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    Why do hybrids need to be plug-in hybrids? That just feels like collusion between automakers and energy companies. Can't hybrids make their own power? They are basically generators on wheels.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/clima...lug-in-hybrid/
    The idea is to use less carbon based energy but still have that as a backup. I do think plugin hybrids makes a lot of sense when you know the average commute trip distance is 15km / 9.3miles but people still want to be able to do longer ones occasionally.

    Let's keep in mind that the charging network is not in the same state globally as it is in the USA. In many countries you want to be able to charge at home for the majority of your trip but you don't want to have to wait n minutes for your car to charge or have to change route to have a charging station available (+the annoyance of dealing with n different apps to connect to different chargers).
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  3. #6923
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    Default Re: Automobiles

    Plug-in hybrids make a ton of sense. For short trips they are effectively an electric car and guess what? Most trips are short. My friend has a Volvo XC-60 Recharge. She plugs into regular power at home and itís enough to keep her battery topped up and she doesnít use any gasoline for weeks or even months at a time.

    Iíve mentioned here before that in the summer of 2021 I used an Opel Grandland plug-in hybrid (Peugeot) and was pretty impressed by it. It would do 60km on electricity and the transition to being a regular hybrid was completely seamless.

    Plug-in hybrids make a lot of sense for a lot of people.

    My brothers each have a Toyota regular hybrid and their economy is very good.

    Also of note, the engine in a hybrid isnít primarily to be a generator. It provides propulsion and is assisted by a motor and a battery.
    La Cheeserie!

  4. #6924
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    Default Re: Automobiles

    A plug-in hybrid is what makes the most sense to my wife and I. At this point weíre waiting for more vehicles that interest us to become plug-in hybrids.

  5. #6925
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    Default Re: Automobiles

    No I am not asking about whether it is a good idea or not. And emissions are part of my point. Why isn't the recharge built into the car? Why do you have to go plug into ConEd? The production of electrical energy in this country is mostly from burning coal and natural gas. Plugging in your hybrid just means you are burning gasoline, coal and natural gas. Why reach outside the car when you should have the means for recharging the batteries through modification/integration of available systems?

    Am I right or is there something about the plug-in aspect that I am not understanding? My guess is that it allows the car to meet emission standards that would be otherwise impossible - which is fine - but it feels to me as a failure of imagination in engineering. And probably a product of everyone trying to build a fully electric car and forgetting about the utility of hybrids, failing on the electric car but then trying to make their money back on the R&D by sticking battery motors in a hybrid and calling it a plug-in hybrid. Bonus that it fits them under the federal reg bar on emissions.

    I'm not talking conspiracies, just business.

    I want my perpetual motion machine.
    Last edited by j44ke; 4 Hours Ago at 05:13 PM.
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    Default Re: Automobiles

    There have been studies done that support the idea that grid scale electrical generation and charging EVs results in about half the carbon emissions of each automobile running an engine. If a PH car barely uses its engine because someone’s daily driving doesn’t need it it’s generally considered cleaner to draw from the grid than to generate your own power with the onboard engine.
    La Cheeserie!

  7. #6927
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    Default Re: Automobiles

    I'm thinking that if the electric motor that drives the car could be used to charge the battery effectively the RailRoads would have incorporated that into their system long ago, rather than a diesel running the generator used to power the electric motors on each axle.

  8. #6928
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    Default Re: Automobiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Saab2000 View Post
    There have been studies done that support the idea that grid scale electrical generation and charging EVs results in about half the carbon emissions of each automobile running an engine. If a PH car barely uses its engine because someone’s daily driving doesn’t need it it’s generally considered cleaner to draw from the grid than to generate your own power with the onboard engine.
    That makes some sense - I mean I am sure it is true on average, but again, it puts control over the cleanliness of the electricity outside the car. So regionally you could have very dirty electricity, and potentially the regulatory satisfaction at the design of the plug-in hybrids in that area would not be accurate. Maybe that's to be expected and could be added into the "green" calculations, but if the manufacturers and/or car buyers are getting tax credits, then you have government incentives for compliance in name only.

    Two of the studies I've read about plug-in hybrids said that most are not charged frequently enough to produce lowered emissions or benefit from higher effective fuel mileage. In fact, plug-in hybrids are frequently heavier than gas-powered cars and gas/electric hybrid vehicles, so they get even lower fuel mileage and may produce higher emissions without consistent plug-in mileage use. One of the studies - Euro-centric - said that in order to receive government incentives, the plug-in range should be increased so that charging could better match the real-world use patterns of charging the car once every 3-4 days. I think the distance was 80-100km.

    So I am betting that the reason hybrid cars don't charge themselves is that there are no incentives to design them that way. If the government regulations specified self-charging hybrids with commuter distance electric ranges and offered incentives for making them, they'd happen. Right now the language seems focused on emissions levels solely as a product of calculations, rather than real world use and human behavior.

    If you can jump start one car with another car, then you can create a system that charges itself and thereby increases efficiency and green-ness by accommodating people's behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyP View Post
    I'm thinking that if the electric motor that drives the car could be used to charge the battery effectively the RailRoads would have incorporated that into their system long ago, rather than a diesel running the generator used to power the electric motors on each axle.
    Innovation on trains is not going to happen in the United States until China takes over in 2150.
    Last edited by j44ke; 2 Hours Ago at 07:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Automobiles

    If owners of plug-in hybrids arenít charging every day itís either because they are lazy and donít want to take the handful of seconds it takes to plug in each time you park, or they bought the wrong car and canít plug them in conveniently. This applies to apartment dwellers or city dwellers without a charging solution. Itís not the fault of the technology that owners/drivers either canít or wonít charge daily. Get what is right for you but do your research and be honest with yourself. Weíve never had more or better choices than we have right now. Iím absolutely convinced of that. Thatís why an EV is probably not right for someone living in a Chicago neighborhood with no garage or home charging option and relies on street parking. The fiasco a few months ago of Teslas stranded all over the city showed this. Be able to charge at home or donít go electric or PHV in 2024.

    I live in suburban Chicago (suburban not because I want to live in the Ďburbs, but because the city of Chicago is even worse for most cycling) and could easily plug in a PHV car in my garage. Yes, I have a garage. This is part of the deal with an EV or PHV (plug-in hybrid vehicle for lack of a better acronym). When I bought my Model Y I knew that I could and would have a wall connector installed. My car is always plugged in at home even though I only charge to 50-60% of capacity 99% of the time. If my battery runs out, itís not the fault of the technology. Itís my fault for not plugging it in. Same with a PHV. If drivers arenít taking advantage of that technology and not plugging in whenever they are parked, or at least overnight, thatís not the fault of the tech, itís the fault of the owner. Again, they are either not doing it right or they bought the wrong car for their situation. The technology assumes a regular charge - like daily. Itís not different than a gas car. Gotta fill up the tank.

    If youíre going to get a car that requires regular charging, itís really best to be able to do this at home or at work every night and/or day.
    La Cheeserie!

  10. #6930
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    Default Re: Automobiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Saab2000 View Post
    If owners of plug-in hybrids aren’t charging every day it’s either because they are lazy and don’t want to take the handful of seconds it takes to plug in each time you park, or they bought the wrong car and can’t plug them in conveniently. This applies to apartment dwellers or city dwellers without a charging solution. It’s not the fault of the technology that owners/drivers either can’t or won’t charge daily. Get what is right for you but do your research and be honest with yourself. We’ve never had more or better choices than we have right now. I’m absolutely convinced of that. That’s why an EV is probably not right for someone living in a Chicago neighborhood with no garage or home charging option and relies on street parking. The fiasco a few months ago of Teslas stranded all over the city showed this. Be able to charge at home or don’t go electric or PHV in 2024.

    I live in suburban Chicago (suburban not because I want to live in the ‘burbs, but because the city of Chicago is even worse for most cycling) and could easily plug in a PHV car in my garage. Yes, I have a garage. This is part of the deal with an EV or PHV (plug-in hybrid vehicle for lack of a better acronym). When I bought my Model Y I knew that I could and would have a wall connector installed. My car is always plugged in at home even though I only charge to 50-60% of capacity 99% of the time. If my battery runs out, it’s not the fault of the technology. It’s my fault for not plugging it in. Same with a PHV. If drivers aren’t taking advantage of that technology and not plugging in whenever they are parked, or at least overnight, that’s not the fault of the tech, it’s the fault of the owner. Again, they are either not doing it right or they bought the wrong car for their situation. The technology assumes a regular charge - like daily. It’s not different than a gas car. Gotta fill up the tank.

    If you’re going to get a car that requires regular charging, it’s really best to be able to do this at home or at work every night and/or day.
    True enough.

    I am going to have to read more about self-charging systems.
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