air traffic control

[SteveP]

they suspended the guy after he fell asleep and 2 planes landed unguided at national airport?
what do you have to do to get fired?

they should fire the guy who decided that 1 guy was enough to cover a major airport..
but what do i know... im just one of the people in the plane.

[quickag]

My wife was ATC in the Air Force. The amount of stress and pressure those guys are under is totally insane. No normal person should have that much stress and pressure put on them without some kind of backup. I don't have the numbers but my gut tells me fallout for military ATC is roughly in line with fallout from most SF schools. And they don't even get to eat yummy live grubs they picked out of a rotting tree in the jungle.

[lukasz]

They wanted to work less. Their demand was deemed a "peril to national safety."

Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (1968) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Saab2000]

they should fire the guy who decided that 1 guy was enough to cover a major airport..

This is the key. The guy taking the fall for being fatigued is not the cause of the problem. It goes much higher up. Same for most of the problems in aviation.

I fly in and out of DCA all the time. I agree there should be more than one controller on duty, but there was never any danger to anyone. Just a bit of inconvenience. There are well-known procedures for flying in and out of un-towered, uncontrolled airports.

DCA is a pretty busy airport but after about 9PM the traffic drops precipitously and there are no scheduled flights between midnight and 6AM IIRC. None. So the guy literally has almost nothing to do except be there for a potentially delayed flight or an emergency diversion, which would normally go to Dulles or Baltimore instead anyway.

I'm not excusing him for falling asleep on the job, but I will say the pressures on people in aviation are higher than most people realize. Pilots can be on duty up to 16 hours per day. Think that's safe? Think again. It happens all the time. (there's a reason I don't ride my bike as much as I used to.) Truck drivers and bus drivers work less. And rightfully so. But passengers want those $59 transcons..... and $99 vacation flights to Florida...... Don't get me started....

Next time you see a fat cat airline exec talking about safety just know it's a huge crock of shit he's selling. They don't care about it except that it's bad publicity to have incidents and accidents. They care about their next quarter's bonus though. Same goes for FAA management, where they've been under huge pressure to cut costs and the results show everywhere, with grossly overworked controllers and ancient technology compared with the rest of the world and near-third world airports in places like New York (La Guardia is a shit hole) and Philadelphia (getting better) and Newark. Trust me, the rest of the world laughs at American aviation infrastructure and how dysfunctional it is.

This is the result of Americans' unwillingness to pay for anything anymore. Stuff costs money and having a second controller on duty WILL cost more money.

I could go on and on about this subject for days.

The controller shouldn't have fallen asleep. But they also shouldn't put in place situations where that could happen.

[ron l edmiston]

justa hpoe for caffeine loaded atc's orlando / hartford --- end of august ....

ronnie

[Tom]

I read the article and I got the impression that they were also switching shifts around on these guys. That's idiotic. I do it for work, 8-5 weekdays (actually I show up after I ride if the weather's good in the morning or I leave early if the weather's crappy in the morning but good in the evening) and often work overnight Saturday into Sunday for implementations. Tuesdays are never good. I'm in a fog all day if I worked the overnight on the weekend. It's fine for what I do, if I actually try something it's not on a production system and the worst that can happen is I bomb it and after I restart stuff I go to the woodshed, hang my head and say "I'm sorry, I'm an asshole, it'll never happen again until the next time." Not true for those guys. Full on pressure, no mistakes allowed and fog head to boot?

I agree, whoever sets up the system to be like that should be cracked upside the head.

[Saab2000]

This circadian rhythm switching is commonplace in the industry and one of our biggest gripes as pilots. I frequently have 4-day trips which start with a wake-up at 03:30. We will fly until 2 PM or so. Not bad. Then on 2 day we do the same. Then on day three we won't start our day until 2 PM, having had 24 hours in some dump hotel near some crummy airport somewhere in the eastern third of the US, having fattened up on Applebee's the night before and the processed food breakfast in the hotel lobby of the Hampton Inn. So we start at 2 and go until 11 PM or so. Same on day 4. And it's not uncommon to have a major delay somewhere, meaning that instead of working until 11PM you're flying at 1 AM just two or three days after getting up at 330AM.

The FAA has proposed major changes in the legal duty limits and rest periods required.

The airlines are fighting these proposals very hard, with highly paid lobbyists. Guess who'll probably win? Common sense or a corporation?

[mnoble485]

This circadian rhythm switching is commonplace in the industry and one of our biggest gripes as pilots. I frequently have 4-day trips which start with a wake-up at 03:30. We will fly until 2 PM or so. Not bad. Then on 2 day we do the same. Then on day three we won't start our day until 2 PM, having had 24 hours in some dump hotel near some crummy airport somewhere in the eastern third of the US, having fattened up on Applebee's the night before and the processed food breakfast in the hotel lobby of the Hampton Inn. So we start at 2 and go until 11 PM or so. Same on day 4. And it's not uncommon to have a major delay somewhere, meaning that instead of working until 11PM you're flying at 1 AM just two or three days after getting up at 330AM.

The FAA has proposed major changes in the legal duty limits and rest periods required.

The airlines are fighting these proposals very hard, with highly paid lobbyists. Guess who'll probably win? Common sense or a corporation?

Saab
Thanks for the input. I have often thought of pilots as "living the good life" what with flying to all those "exotic lands with all those "beautiful" stewerdess. Crappy food and bad coffee sounds more like it.

Mike

[Saab2000]

Saab
Thanks for the input. I have often thought of pilots as "living the good life" what with flying to all those "exotic lands with all those "beautiful" stewerdess. Crappy food and bad coffee sounds more like it.

Mike

I don't know what planet you're from, but where I now fly there aren't many beauties anymore. They might have been beautiful when Wright Brothers invented flying but they passed their Sell By date a few generations ago.

There ought to be a mandatory retirement age for flight attendants (since it is a required safety position) just like there is for pilots and air traffic controllers.

The exotic land equation comes into play every several months for me when I can arrange a few days off and go to Europe for a cheap price because I can fly for nearly free and I have a place to stay there. But most of my flying is boring and the destinations hardly exotic. Tomorrow I lay over in Richmond, VA out near the airport, not even downtown. The next day I get to hang out in Manchester, NH for 24 hours. Also near the airport with a Chili's and probably some other bar or restaurant for company. I can hardly wait......

Not complaining. I chose this job and it does have some good points too. The money could be better, but it is not bad either (after years of shitty pay I am now a captain and make a bit more) and the benefits are outstanding, like free, relatively easy travel. But if the flight benefits went away I'd be looking for new work tomorrow and that is no lie.

[Sbti]

Huh??????

p

This is the result of Americans' unwillingness to pay for anything anymore.

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The money could be better, but it is not bad either (after years of shitty pay I am now a captain and make a bit more) and the benefits are outstanding, like free ,relatively easy travel. But if the flight benefits went away I'd be looking for new work tomorrow and that is no lie.

[Saab2000]

I'll respond later. I see the possible illusion of a contradiction. I'm in New York at the moment and leaving shortly.

[Saab2000]

Huh??????

Sbti,

Your point is taken. I guess the best argument I can make is that when I get to travel for cheap (or free) there no cost incurred by anyone other than the weight I add to the machine. I get on only if there is an empty seat. The airplane is going anyway and so I am allowed to board only after everyone else has gotten on.

My point about nobody being willing to pay for anything is slightly different (in my eyes) but I get what you are meaning. I am making a larger commentary on the country that folks want stuff like bridges and roads and schools and an army and clean water and airports but aren't willing to fund them, hence the current problems in Congress and in governments all over the US.

I don't know how to explain it better than that I don't expect anyone to provide me something that wouldn't already exist, namely a seat on an airplane. Anyway.... your point is well taken. I am probably guilty of some contradiction but my deal is that the planes I board for free are how we commute to work and they go anyway and often leave without me on board if they are full. Somewhat different, but I see your point.