some unsolicited and free advice atmo -

[e-RICHIE]

NEVER use or consider a deposit as income or cash flow.
NEVER accept a deposit that you cannot afford to return at a later date.
NEVER set a selling price such that you're unable to make a living from it.
NEVER lock in a price unless you have been (sic) paid in full and in advance.
NEVER take payment in advance.
and -
you NEVER need orders if all you really want are deposits to pay off current invoices.

[pruckelshaus]

Eek. Everything cool, Richie?

Good advice nonetheless, not that I've made a single cent from framebuilding.

[edoz]

NEVER lock in a price unless you have been (sic) paid in full and in advance.

I don't get this one, surely you're not saying that the price isn't locked in after the customer has paid his deposit?

Wait, does this refer to guys with a long wait list not locking in the 5 years ago price?

[e-RICHIE]

I don't get this one, surely you're not saying that the price isn't locked in after the customer has paid his deposit?

the deposit locks in a space in the queue.
unless you make the frame the next day or next month, how do YOU know your cogs or overhead, or related line items will be atmo? insurance premiums, interest rates, lettuce, catch of the day at the fish market, utility costs - these wait for no man atmo.

Wait, does this refer to guys with a long wait list not locking in the 5 years ago price?

see above.

[edoz]

Yeah, that one had to brew for a while before it clicked. It's a bit different when your wait list consists of "I'm done, what's next?"

[wheelhouse]

All stuff that I had pretty much gathered from spending time here, but its always nice to see stuff laid out in no uncertain terms like this.

[bellman]

PiFTAG
this stads for; perfect fricken timing atmo, gracias

[Dazza]

What Richard says is very important if you want a sustainable frame business
It is not good enough to be a wicked TIG welder
or have sexy lug curves, or braze like Merlin
making frames for a living is not a charity
nor does a real frame builder need charity to be sustainable

and remember
it is toil
and perseverance
to get some equity in hand

[jerk]

what richie says plus:

deposits are a liability by definition. anyone assuming otherwise needs to buy a dictionary or take an on-line class in bookkeeping at the open university or something.

a certain margin keeps the lights on- you can make a profit off a sale and still be losing a shit ton of money- stick to a budget!!!!!

as long as your business is growing every year- you can keep taking money out and not even fucking realize that you are slowly going out of business and fucked.


if you know these three things- you are way ahead of 90% of the ceos in america.

[e-RICHIE]

my experience with clients is this - regardless of when a frame is ordered or what the wait is, they want the latest iteration of what's available. so if you're a cat who makes running changes in material, details, or even upgrades to what you bring to the game (at the bench), you will be paid for what you have, do, and know now rather than when the deposit was sent. i have had folks regularly hold off on builds when they'd get wind that a (lug) tool revision is in the works, or a next-generation head badge is almost done, or a new version of SFL - and all things in between. it may not be rational at all, but buyers don't want anything dated. and as we know, sometimes they are happy just to get delivery at all. but when you are making that frame, remember: if you have something new and/or are doing something better, it belongs on the frame. don't compromise the ordeal by using dead stock, old inventory, or close-out items to assemble the bicycle. framebuilding is not ocean state job lot or sam's club atmo.

[Tom Kellogg]

Take a look at the little red circle with a white star in it next to Richie's avatar... what it represents. Then look at atmo's signature image. What Richie did when he started this thread is what the TFC does ... exactly. It's not always so public, frequently quite private as we work with other builders, but this is what TFC is. Huzza! By the way ... +1.

[edelbikes]

I have a slightly related question: How do you manage your waiting list ? Do you always put the customers in the order you receive the deposits, or in the order they got in contact first ?

[e-RICHIE]

I have a slightly related question: How do you manage your waiting list ? Do you always put the customers in the order you receive the deposits, or in the order they got in contact first ?

a spot in the queue is (only) held when a deposit is received and is accompanied by a signed order form. some folks
contact me years before the leap of faith is made. i can only assume it's the same for my brethren in the trade atmo.

[Dazza]

a spot in the queue is (only) held when a deposit is received and is accompanied by a signed order form. some folks
contact me years before the leap of faith is made. i can only assume it's the same for my brethren in the trade atmo.

the same here

I will add
when a deposit is received here it is written into a payment book (on paper in case the hard drive blows it's mind)
A folder with the client's name is started and all paper work goes into that, position stuff, CAD drawing, spec sheets for the bike build etc.
The frames are built in the order they are written in the book.
Some times a customer is not ready when their spot arrives and so I move onto the next order and return when they are ready. (Life bowls a few *bouncers some times and the client has to duck ,weave and bat on till all is sweet, I appreciate that)
The deposit is non refundable and not transferable, because one has done book work, spoken on the phone, typed emails, which is time not at the work bench working towards an invoice.
This removes the possible abuse of a builder's time and efforts and ensures the customer's intent is genuine.
I have heard of builder's having clients request a transfer of their spot in a builder's queue to a pal, or even selling that spot in a queue, this is out of order and very rude atmco and thankfully it has never occurred to me.


*bouncer = cricket term