Dornbox Bicycles

[steve garro]

my ultimate goal is to be a viable business. When calculating your cost, do you divide fixed monthly costs over an average amount or fixed number of frames you expect to build in a year? Thanks!- Chris

the only "fixed" costs are your utilities/insurance/rent/mortgage. stuff like that. There are tons of things you can't forsee. sicknesses, repairs, machinery breakdown, out of stock items. How do you know how many frames you will SELL in a year? *making* frames is one thing, *selling* them is another. Not to be a buzzkill, but these are things to consider. Like I said - catch the buisness seminar....... - Garro.

[edoz]

Like I said - catch the buisness seminar....... - Garro.

+1 I attended it in Richmond and it was great. Tons of stuff I'd never thought of, and answers to stuff I had thought of.

[Dornbox]

I have a few questions. How many frames have you cut up? How many frames have you thrown in the garbage? How many frames have broken (trust me they will) and how have you dealt (going to deal) with it (meaning fix it or replace it)?

What is wrong with your current jig that you felt you wished you bought that new jig?

You obviously are very energetic and want to keep moving forward but have you really sat down and thought it all out? How long does it take you to build a bike? Not to compare but to give you an idea I can build a bike in 1 day. This includes bending the stays, welding it, doing the braze ons and all the finish work on the drop outs. Do I make 300 bikes a year? No way! That is because there is a ton of other stuff that is included. My price does not reflex a bike being made in one day, it is based on a dollar amount that is required to pay all the bills and put food on the table.

Last question is what do you consider being a full time professional? My opinion of a professional builder is someone that brings in income that puts food on the table and makes his living in the bicycle industry. There are excellent builders that fall under part time builder but I am curious what makes you claim full time professional? You claim you are not making money but that is OK because you are learning. Don't you think that falls under something other than full time professional?

I will end with don't take it as being harsh (you claim to have thick skin so this is testing it) and I am sure we will have a pleasant conversation in person in a few weeks time.

-Drew

Drew. I appreciate your questions and concerns for what I would consider the industry. All true professions (DRs, Esquires, Architects, Engineers, etc) have requirements or have a board which certifies such people as part of such groups in the interest of the group. I see you as very much trying to take on that role which I appreciate. To answer your questions:

How many frames have I cut up, thrown away etc. None. There's been no need to, although I did come close to throwing a bike away that I made for my wife but later decided to cut only part of it up and reuse the rest (I decided to change the geometry). What I'm assuming your getting at is how do I know my bikes are safe. I've made and continue to make test joints which I cut up and torture on a regular basis. I often purposely flaw them then try to get the joint to fail. I regularly seek advice from people in metal fabricating industries including the bicycle frame one, research online, have a little education myself, and 20 plus years of on off experience. I use to fabricate parts and weld pieces for power plants, rigging for fishing trawlers, and much more. While I worry about bikes failing (because that's my personality) I would be honestly surprised if or when one does. If you read my past responses, You'd see that I don't think I have to have make 100 frames just to feel like I can simply make a decent a frame. With that said, if I had a trust fund, I might have gone the 100 frames for myself route but even that has it's flaws too. If a frame needs to be repaired, I'll repair it. Honestly, how many frames did any builder here make before hey put a friend or someone other than themselves on one. I'm sure the answers will vary widely but there are only so many frames you can build for yourself and you need feedback. Research LL Bean. And again, I've been welding off and on for years, just not bicycles.

As for my equipment, I buy the best. My earlier statement simply means that I do not have a jig for every little process in my shop (as many don't) but I would like jigs for them.

We'll have to cover this one over a beer, it would take me weeks to fully cover it via this form. The Short version: Many business are not truly profitable when they open their doors and I didn't expect to be and do not expect to be for another year or so. I do make money on the bikes I sell, I just don't sell enough. I'm cool with that, I'm building my brand. What makes me a frame builder. Education, metal working experience, and the fact that my bikes ride just like they're supposed to, awesome! I don't deceive people or miss represent myself by claiming to be all knowing or the best. But I do make a great bike that you can currently get for a smokin deal simply because I don't have a reputation in the industry yet.

I look forward to meeting and chilling with you in a few weeks.-Chris

[Dornbox]

catch the buisness seminar....... - Garro.

I tried to catch Carl in Richmond, that bad boy filled up! I'll get there at some point although I honestly would rather spend my cash and resources towards spending time with other builders/teachers. So much to learn and so little money. Maybe I'll just camp out in Richard's yard until he shows me the way of the Jedi Master...?-Chris

[anthonymaietta]

I tried to catch Carl in Richmond, that bad boy filled up! I'll get there at some point although I honestly would rather spend my cash and resources towards spending time with other builders/teachers. So much to learn and so little money. Maybe I'll just camp out in Richard's yard until he shows me the way of the Jedi Master...?-Chris

Chris,

Maybe there is a reason Carl's seminar filled up.

While Carl and Richard are both successful Professional framebuilders their frames and busniness models are very different. Based on your first 10 frames I see you trying to follow the path of the former more than the latter. It might be of benefit to you to hear what he has to say. It was a watershed hour for me in Portland at NAHBS 2008. Other successful Professional framebuilders are equally different with different business models as well. You need to decide what you are first, develop experience, seek a model to emmulate and then be humble when asking for assistance.

Tony

[steve garro]

I worry about bikes failing (because that's my personality) I would be honestly surprised if or when one does.

Get ready to be suprised. You will be. it's just a matter of time. anyone who has built more then a handful of bikes can't say they have never had to warrenty something. Shit happens. It does. "JRA" - Garro.

[e-RICHIE]

this is chris' thread, not mine, but why did you say this, and what does it mean atmo -

Chris,


While Carl and Richard are both successful Professional framebuilders their frames and busniness models are very different.

[anthonymaietta]

this is chris' thread, not mine, but why did you say this, and what does it mean atmo -

My point was that Carl is business is mostly, if not all frame-based. His prices for a steel frame/fork are about half of yours and he has to build more of them to keep himself in business. You have an established soft good and lug business, build fewer frames and charge more for a frame/fork. While neither model is wrong, how you two go about making a sustainable living by building bicycle frames is very different. My point was that I think Chris needs to plan his path; whether it be more in your vein or more in Carl's vein and work towards making that work.

[e-RICHIE]

My point was that Carl is business is mostly, if not all frame-based. His prices for a steel frame/fork are about half of yours and he has to build more of them to keep himself in business. You have an established soft good and lug business, build fewer frames and charge more for a frame/fork. While neither model is wrong, how you two go about making a sustainable living by building bicycle frames is very different. My point was that I think Chris needs to plan his path; whether it be more in your vein or more in Carl's vein and work towards making that work.

we all start somewhere atmo.
i once made more frames and sold them at lower prices too.
check back with carl in the future and see if the gap narrows.

[Dornbox]

Other successful Professional framebuilders are equally different with different business models as well. You need to decide what you are first, develop experience, seek a model to emmulate and then be humble when asking for assistance.

Tony

At this point spending time and getting advice from anyone in the biz who's making it or has made it happen is a step forward. And I'd whore myself out in a dark alley to for the opportunity. If that's not humble, I'm not sure what is....-Chris

[Curt Goodrich]

At this point spending time and getting advice from anyone in the biz who's making it or has made it happen is a step forward. And I'd whore myself out in a dark alley to for the opportunity. If that's not humble, I'm not sure what is....-Chris

Those are just words. In this case, only actions will show humility. No need to whore oneself out. Just go work in the industry. While no longer fashionable it really is the best way to figure this framebuilding gig out before hanging one's own shingle out. There are plenty of opportunities to work in the industry.

[Dornbox]

Just go work in the industry. While no longer fashionable it really is the best way to figure this framebuilding gig out before hanging one's own shingle out. There are plenty of opportunities to work in the industry.

Moving (having my wife quit her profession and putting my son in daycare) for a job building bikes wasn't really an option but if it was... I would have done it. As for fashionable, HELL YEAHS! Guy's who build bikes in any capacity are my heros. Just Sayin'. Anyway, regarding my path, as for now I have no regrets with the one I've chosen and I'm having a good time. Besides, at the time it was my only option to get into the scene and I had the skill sets needed. Like I said, no regrets and I'm having a great time of it.-Chris

[Flux]

Those are just words. In this case, only actions will show humility. No need to whore oneself out. Just go work in the industry. While no longer fashionable it really is the best way to figure this framebuilding gig out before hanging one's own shingle out. There are plenty of opportunities to work in the industry.

curt,

what are you currently working on?

[Curt Goodrich]

curt,

what are you currently working on?

This isn't my thread. I'm working on my bikes.

[anthonymaietta]

This isn't my thread.

You in line for one?

[justinf]

You in line for one?

Hope so!

[Eddie]

If Chris Dornbach were a bock, and not a box, would he be a helles? A dopplebock? Perhaps a Greenpoint Quad Bock?

If you would, please provide a sample 5-gallon grain bill.

[Dornbox]

If Chris Dornbach were a bock, and not a box, would he be a helles? A dopplebock? Perhaps a Greenpoint Quad Bock?

If you would, please provide a sample 5-gallon grain bill.

Nice question!

First... I think I'd be a belgian royal stout with a fair dose of funky bugs (brettanomyces and lactobacilli).

Good samples would be Black Albert, a funky Kate the Great, and maybe a Pannapot Wild... or anything funky from Russian River or Allagash.

Grain bill (completely off the hip) 20 Lbs 6.5 gal batch 12+%

15.50 lbs. Belgian Pilsener
2.00 lbs. German Pilsener
1.50 lbs. Dark Candi Syrup
0.50 lbs. Crystal 120L
0.5 lbs. Cara Extra Special
0.06 lbs. Belgian Chocolate Malt
0.06 lbs. Simpson's Coffee Malt

and a pound or two of german sour cherries for good measure.

Of course in the summer I'm more of a hoppy Belgian Farm House or saison like Thiriez Extra. I'd have to dig my brewing journals out to pull that grain bill off though and it would definitely have a sour mash and come in around 6%.

Is anyone else thirsty? -Chris

[edoz]

Hey Chris, it was cool finally meeting you (even briefly) in Austin. That is a nice looking bike you had there and hopefully I will have more time to chat with you next year.

[Eddie]

Dude, that is one heavy beer!

I'm ready. Let me get my stuff in order and I might try to execute this one, or something similar.

Your brew knowledge is impressive.