(help) Alignment Table Size??

[PCW]

i am seeing alotta money and alotta metal (and stone) in the internet era frame shops that dwarf the very output and knowledge
base that many of these players have.

Yeah, that's why I've been building on my table saw top, it's perfect for my one frame/quarter pace--and it makes me file those miters damn near perfect before I strike an arc 'cause I've seen what just a little bit of "off" does. It is case iron, ground, and big enough to lay out an ANSI E to build off of. Sure works great. That reminds me, does Joe sell just his alignment table post? I could drill a hole in a corner and mount that on there and have an alignment table too.

Thanks for reinforcing what I thought was already a clever idea for a guy like me that has no volume 'cause sometimes I get tool envy around here.

[anthonymaietta]

As I think about this thread more and more, I'm inclined to remove the words "alignment table" from my vocabulary and replace them with "inspection table". Proper use of the tool validates process through inspection. If made properly the frame should not by aligned on said tool. Maybe the commotion that has resulted is from a connotation.

[anthonymaietta]

Yeah, that's why I've been building on my table saw top, it's perfect for my one frame/quarter pace--and it makes me file those miters damn near perfect before I strike an arc 'cause I've seen what just a little bit of "off" does. It is case iron, ground, and big enough to lay out an ANSI E to build off of. Sure works great. That reminds me, does Joe sell just his alignment table post? I could drill a hole in a corner and mount that on there and have an alignment table too.

Thanks for reinforcing what I thought was already a clever idea for a guy like me that has no volume 'cause sometimes I get tool envy around here.

Maybe I ask what brand of table you use? ::dig dig::

[Archibald]

As I think about this thread more and more, I'm inclined to remove the words "alignment table" from my vocabulary and replace them with "inspection table". Proper use of the tool validates process through inspection. If made properly the frame should not by aligned on said tool. Maybe the commotion that has resulted is from a connotation.

It's semantics, Tony. I agree with Daz, if you're going to build, you should check your work. If you need to make adjustments to your alignment, do so, but don't try to make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. All pros do frame alignment but the goal is to minimize it. I've published my build/alignment technique too many times to repeat it here, but IMHO, many folks rely on the alignment table too heavily.

[Craig Ryan]

This is all good to read.
Dazza, when you speak of oiling your table etc. Do you just wipe it with a rag and oil, or is there a specific process to this?
Craig

[Dazza]

This is all good to read.
Dazza, when you speak of oiling your table etc. Do you just wipe it with a rag and oil, or is there a specific process to this?
Craig

Rags
to wipe grit, dust and oil off
I have an old oil can, notice in the pic it is sitting on a ground block of steel, this way it is always handy and will not mark the table.
I give a squirt of fresh oil before every use (I use any unused clean oil, but some will tell I should use some special brew ? any how I use motor oil
also for good measure I have some powered graphite in a plastic bottle on the table which I dust onto the oily surface before use. (cannot do any harm could it?)
I have a plastic pad on the table that I put the alignment rods etc onto so not to mark the table surface. (Cast iron will mark/dent easily)
Any raiser blocks or jacks I use on the table are made of alloy so as to not mark the table in use.

Stopping visitors from resting the hands on the table edge to avoid them getting oily hands is a constant!

[e-RICHIE]

<cut> All pros do frame alignment but the goal is to minimize it. I've published my build/alignment technique too many times to repeat it here, but IMHO, many folks rely on the alignment table too heavily.

i absolutely cannot recall the last time i aligned a frame atmo.
the table should, ultimately, be a witness to your refined work.

[VertigoCycles]

i absolutely cannot recall the last time i aligned a frame atmo.
the table should, ultimately, be a witness to your refined work.

Our goal is to produce a straight frame no? In that vein, we're all aligning frames if even it's during the process of building through inspection and sequencing. Potato, Potahto?

[e-RICHIE]

Our goal is to produce a straight frame no? In that vein, we're all aligning frames if even it's during the process of building through inspection and sequencing. Potato, Potahto?

i meant using levers, fulcrums, cheater bars, muscle, etc, atmo.

[Archibald]

i absolutely cannot recall the last time i aligned a frame atmo.
the table should, ultimately, be a witness to your refined work.

Memory is the 2nd thing to go.

[e-RICHIE]

Memory is the 2nd thing to go.

what -
are people really yanking left and right on (built) frames with some regularity around here atmo?

[zank]

Nope. My theory is this. The thing is going to go back to where it was before trying to bend it when the rider does the first town line sprint. So it better be straight during the process.

[e-RICHIE]

Nope. My theory is this. The thing is going to go back to where it was before trying to bend it when the rider does the first town line sprint. So it better be straight during the process.

so, no yank from zanc atmo?

[zank]

not on frames.

[e-RICHIE]

not on frames.

you need your own Saturday Night Lights column atmo.
heck, we need your Saturday Nights Lights column...

[Curt Goodrich]

I completely agree that the goal is to build the frame straight but I do not agree with the theory that the frame will "want" to go back to where it was before being bent. Certainly there's no laws of physics to support that theory. We routinely bend fork blades and they don't straighten or continue bending after hard rides. Oval chain stays do not start to get rounder after hard sprints. If something gets bent that's where it stays barring something like a crash where the tube gets bent to a different location. Riding no matter how much power is put into the pedals does not cause the frame to go out or in alignment. That only flexes the tube. It does not bend it. Having said this, I'm not advocating sloppy building procedures. The goal is to build the frame straight without the need to bend the tubes to where they need to be.

[zank]

Here's why I think the way I do. Say you're out 20 thou. You stick a big bar in there and yank on it pretty hard to get it to move. But say you go too far, say 5 or 10 thou. Why do you barely need to breathe on the thing to go back those 5 thou? I think bending fork blades is a bit different because you are clearly going past the yield strength of the material to get it to deform. I dunno. I can only say what I observe. It was astounding to watch how hard it is to move a titanium tube when aligning a frame, but how easy it was to go back a few thou if they went past the zero point.

[anthonymaietta]

Here's why I think the way I do. Say you're out 20 thou. You stick a big bar in the and yank on it pretty hard to get it to move. But say you go too far, say 5 or 10 thou. Why do you barely need to breathe on the thing to go back those 5 thou? I think bending fork blades is a bit different because you are clearly going past the yield strength of the material to get it to deform. I dunno. I can only say what I observe. It was astounding to watch how hard it is to move a titanium tube when aligning a frame, but how easy it was to go back a few thou if they went past the 0 zero point.

I agree with Zank. Ovalizing a chain stay & raking a fork blade are completely different than cold setting a seat tube 0.020". My monthly student loan payment tells me I should remember the technical aspect of this from engineering school, but I honestly can't right now. I do work at a 177 year old cutting tool manufacturer that makes everything out of steel. I can tell you with 150% confidence, without a shadow of a doubt, that steel does have a memory, and under load/stress it will go back to a home position.

[EnginCycles]

what -
are people really yanking left and right on (built) frames with some regularity around here atmo?

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum...tml#post226726

[Archibald]

Here's why I think the way I do. Say you're out 20 thou. You stick a big bar in there and yank on it pretty hard to get it to move. But say you go too far, say 5 or 10 thou. Why do you barely need to breathe on the thing to go back those 5 thou? I think bending fork blades is a bit different because you are clearly going past the yield strength of the material to get it to deform. I dunno. I can only say what I observe. It was astounding to watch how hard it is to move a titanium tube when aligning a frame, but how easy it was to go back a few thou if they went past the zero point.

To get the material to take a new set, you have to go past yield (and why it's such a bad idea to align frames made from heat treated tubing). Doing that leaves residual stresses in the frame (and a thin wall tube is basically a stress skin structure) and so "going back" is not as hard for that first little bit.