(help) Alignment Table Size??

[e-RICHIE]

wtf does this mean atmo -

Richard's M&L table is that design and had a hook after time.

[e-RICHIE]

ps wtf is this chat doing here at the alum board?
gimme a good reason or else i will move it to the frameforum board asap imho.

hey - thanks for reading.

[steve garro]

You're talking about creep here. A 1" thick steel plate hanging a foot off a support is not going to creep enough to make a difference in Steve's lifetime unless he starts putting a torch to it. If it's flat after grinding it will stay flat outside of wear or trauma or significant temperature variations and temps are the reason why granite has replaced iron for surface plates.

my figuring, too. no torch to the table. like I said - I don't even wrench on it. it's for measuring. - Garro.

[anthonymaietta]

My initial intent was just to get some answers from builders

but looking at how the thread has evolved I get the sense builders show more true feelings when potential customers are not involved.

[steve garro]

ps wtf is this chat doing here at the alum board?
gimme a good reason or else i will move it to the frameforum board asap imho.

hey - thanks for reading.

*bump to F'building, good info!* - Garro.

[e-RICHIE]

ya what steve said atmo.
i need to exercise my inner control freak .
this thread is moved.

[EnginCycles]

wtf does this mean atmo -

You have mentioned on the list that you had your table re-ground because of it not being flat? Is that not correct? If so I will ask it be removed but I am honestly saying that from a direct conversation with you about the table and having it re-ground. Again I am not trying to put words in anyone's mouth.

-Drew

[EnginCycles]

double post

[e-RICHIE]

You have mentioned on the list that you had your table re-ground because of it not being flat? Is that not correct? If so I will ask it be removed but I am honestly saying that from a direct conversation with you about the table and having it re-ground. Again I am not trying to put words in anyone's mouth.

-Drew

that's not true at all atmo.

when i got my table, i was surprised by the built-in (or left-in) striations so i immediately had the surface blanchard (re)ground.
stupid newb american me, i came to realize that the lines were there so that the worker could shift the height guage back/forth
on it to remove any sticky flux deposits that might linger from the constant placing of frames on said table.

and i gotta chime in here - some (of you) guys seem overly infatuated with alignment and read out and all sortsa' tool shit atmo.
heck (asshat me for this...) i build about 800 frames before an alignment table even existed within the four walls of a shop i used.
i am seeing alotta money and alotta metal (and stone) in the internet era frame shops that dwarf the very output and knowledge
base that many of these players have.

[x] asshat

[Proparc]

Some table is better than no table. That said, kitchen countertop granite is NOT flat-trust me. Size wise, I see a minimum of 48"x48". As our "Archibald" has stated, blanchard ground steel or cast is easier to drill your fixture holes. But, your basic class B granite surface plate is easier and cheaper to obtain. Of course, the Starrett"Master Pink"(sounds like a rock group) is the creme de la creme of surface plates and is my dream plate. If you spring for a basic class B plate, you can usually get a stand for it at a reasonalble price, (get a stand with wheels,if you don't, you are going to wish you got a stand with wheels).

[EnginCycles]

that's not true at all atmo.

when i got my table, i was surprised by the built-in (or left-in) striations so i immediately had the surface blanchard (re)ground.
stupid newb american me, i came to realize that the lines were there so that the worker could shift the height guage back/forth
on it to remove any sticky flux deposits that might linger from the constant placing of frames on said table.

and i gotta chime in here - some (of you) guys seem overly infatuated with alignment and read out and all sortsa' tool shit atmo.
heck (asshat me for this...) i build about 800 frames before an alignment table even existed within the four walls of a shop i used.
i am seeing alotta money and alotta metal (and stone) in the internet era frame shops that dwarf the very output and knowledge
base that many of these players have.

[x] asshat

As requested above I will remove it from my post but the rest is up to you as the administrator.

[e-RICHIE]

As requested above I will remove it from my post but the rest is up to you as the administrator.

i don't care if you remove it.
it was your idea anyway atmo.
emoticon.

[Carl S]

i am seeing alotta money and alotta metal (and stone) in the internet era frame shops that dwarf the very output and knowledge
base that many of these players have.

[x] asshat

I heart this sentence

[e-RICHIE]

I heart this sentence

the sentence or the asshat saying it?
thurdsay is low self-esteem day here in franklin county atmo.

[Carl S]

The sentence

"i am seeing alotta money and alotta metal (and stone) in the internet era frame shops that dwarf the very output and knowledge
base that many of these players have."

[e-RICHIE]

The sentence

"i am seeing alotta money and alotta metal (and stone) in the internet era frame shops that dwarf the very output and knowledge
base that many of these players have."

ok thanks atmo.

the greatest gift (noted in hindsight) i got along the way was that of learning to do all this without tooling and fixtures. to
wit, it was only after 700-800 frames did i get that mentioned M+L table, and then 2 year later i added the Bike Machinery
Hydra to the mix. and then - after all that time waiting, and then money "finally" spent - i realized that the tools guaranty
nothing. NOTHING. it was only through an acquired sense of intuition that i was able to understand what all the nuances of
heat, metal, different brands and shapes of metal, hand-eye coordination, an infinite array of possible geometries, as well
as unlimited ways to sequence all the assemblies - only after all of this was i able to understand how tooling can not only
affect, but help, the build - and, dare i say, the framebuilder atmo.

[Carl S]

ok thanks atmo.

the greatest gift (noted in hindsight) i got along the way was that of learning to do all this without tooling and fixtures. to
wit, it was only after 700-800 frames did i get that mentioned M+L table, and then 2 year later i added the Bike Machinery
Hydra to the mix. and then - after all that time waiting, and then money "finally" spent - i realized that the tools guaranty
nothing. NOTHING. it was only through an acquired sense of intuition that i was able to understand what all the nuances of
heat, metal, different brands and shapes of metal, hand-eye coordination, an infinite array of possible geometries, as well
as unlimited ways to sequence all the assemblies - only after all of this was i able to understand how tooling can not only
affect, but help, the build - and, dare i say, the framebuilder atmo.

I couldn't agree more. I wrote a blog post on just this subject last year. You have to already be a framebuilder before you can really take advantage of a lot of the tools you commonly see in shops these days. Tools don't build the frame, the framebuilder builds the frame. It's my opinion that in the early years when output is low a builder should do what they have to do with the bare minimum. Then as they become more and more busy they can add to the shop in order to speed the process. Ideally as your business grows you also generate the revenue to purchase the equipment vs. using loans or savings.

[steve garro]

check out what i started with: Cold Steel and a Welding Torch - Garro.

[EricKeller]

mine is 2'x3' and it's big enough for me, but if I had the chance to easily get a 3'x4' I would be a lot more happy with that. I don't crank on it, use other, less fragile things than a slab of rock with holes drilled in it.

[Dazza]

I am looking to upgrade my alignment table setup and I see one locally at a very good price.
Its 36" x 24" x 6" solid granite. Is this big enough?
What size tables do you guys have?
Thanks,
Tony

any thing smaller than 48" x 36" is a total pain
Do not fall in love with the deal
fall in love with what you need and what will work.
You only have to buy one table in a lifetime and if looked after (lots of rages, oil and wipe over after use, it is not hard to keep it clean)
thus your grand children will have it when you are pushing up the daisies

If one is building regularly and taking hard earned dollars off punters
then I reckon a good alignment table is bloody f--ing important.
My first boss did not have a forming up jig, he used a board with lines to from the frames up against
but he had an old frame building table for alignment (but he also used it as a bench/table, which was a disgrace)
so maybe that was why the very first tool I bought when I went solo was a cast meehanite hand scraped table that became available at a good price back then. (circa 1988 $2,000 aud and it sat in a crate for 12 months till I was ready to build)
It will assist to confirm that a builder's technique is going the right way
it will hone the builders technique if the builder applies them self to using it with intelligence
I reckon one has know what the alignment really is.
You have to have some thing to believe in and to compare your frame against.
Not,
"oh yeah that is good enough"
or
"The punter won't know the difference"

I feel strong about this, any professional builder in the 21 st Century that operates with out some form of alignment table is just being cheap and perhaps more concerned with colour path ways and shiney stainless bits rather than purity in the build first.

For the hobbist, get your string and lump of angle iron out

PS. The table is also great for when one is making fixtures and checking fixtures. {DWF fork jig is bloody good :-) }

I will also add
Get a good table, before you get milling machines, lathes and tubing mitre fixtures and all that stuff
because you can hand mitre fine if you get some skills
Forming up fixture and table, and the tourches and welders are the first tools!
We are not building bike frames in some back alley hovel in Calcutta with chalk and string.
According to my current opinion!