Frame builder boom

[Lobotomia]

There truly will be a boom in framebuilder web sites when Chris Kvale has one...

Ha! That's a good one. I remember when he asked me if I wanted to put a deposit down for a frame I had him build - I handed him a credit card. He said "I don't have the technology for one of those things." You should see his pull-start answering machine. Wow.

Much respect for that guy.

[swoop]

seriously, we go through this in almost every industry. i certainly do in mine. there are over 5000 therapists in my little zip code alone. all you have to do is go to school and do the work. its not hard to finish the degree can call yourself a therapist and by goodness.. you are one.

you know how many of them are good at what they do, or have even done the work themselves?

people/customers want easy answers. they don't understand what they can't see... but that goes for any of the arts.... from the half-arts like being a shrink... to the fine arts, and throughout anything that requires the skillful participation of the customer.
i'll tell you what i do... i just focus on what's in front of me. i don't market, i don't do the industry stuff, i don't have a business plan. i keep a low overhead and i do the best work i can while noticing my weaknesses and continually adressing them. i advocate for the needs of my clients using everything i know... and i know my limitations. the rest is up to them.

thats really all i can take -on.

i see people getting rich selling people simple answers. on the surface it may appear like we're in the same industry , but we're not.
bike making is in my mind very similar that way.

i do it for the love of the process and its because it happens to be the thing i'm best at. the rest of it isn't about me, and i don't have anything in common with it except name.

[Fixed]

i am starting my on frame buss. they will all be custom fix .. I just have to figure out to get the broom sticks to stick maybe glue ..

oh you said boom i thought you said broom
cheers
butch

[justinf]

I worry that it won't happen and that the handbuilt business as a whole could get a bad name due to the product being produced during the learning curve.

I don't think this will happen. I think it's apparent that our established builders are offering a product that's built to last.

Many of these newer builders are a component of some scene or subculture within the bike world too, so they reach that group more immediately. A couple of the more established are Wes Willits and Johnny Coast, for example. These guys can apparently build pretty well (I have a Willits, actually, but that's a whole other story). Others, not so much.

Obviously the bike culture of Portland has spawned (too) many guys who have maybe built a few bikes for friends, went to art school, whatever, kicked down the money for a sweet website and voila. Then there are the multitude of guys who just can't make the business side work, so people want to play the starving artist card. Equally lame.

Hang out in the music business for a bit. The web has kicked the successes of the untalented up to a whole new level. You can't really begrudge folks for attempting to carve out the life they want, but it is often driven by a desired lifestyle rather than the desire to make something excellent. e-richie said it right.

It's not new, just new to the bike business in this current wave.

[coylifut]

I'm leaving my current gig to become a Life Coach first and a Frame Builder second. The beauty is, I don't have to move to Portland. I already live here. I may do couples therapy and build tandems. I'm working on my online degree now and have a spot reserved at that bike mechanics school in Ashland.

I'd like to addressed and Doctor Coach Keele from now on.

[Shinomaster]

I'm leaving my current gig to become a Life Coach first and a Frame Builder second. The beauty is, I don't have to move to Portland. I already live here. I may do couples therapy and build tandems. I'm working on my online degree now and have a spot reserved at that bike mechanics school in Ashland.

I'd like to addressed and Doctor Coach Keele from now on.

I'll be your first customer! Cindy and I need a Tandem.

[swoop]

frankly. from the little bit i've seen, it looks like really hard work. and i have a feeling the hard work itself will weed out the lifestyle aspirational types.
the problem is that many a customer will and does get screwed.. possibly harmed, and certainly turned off by inferior product. its more that joining pipes together and adding cool paint. the doing it right is a big deal.

and so someone else's bad work is a personal thing. i find i do pay for it (other peoples bad work) in my domain. it does directly affect my livelihood.

anyway.. i've overindulged myself in this thread. off to work i go!

[gt6267a]

As others are pointing out, every discipline has an array of skill levels and there is less cream than milk. As manufactured bicycles took over the industry, is it possible that only or mostly cream survived the 90s such that for a few years the hand made bicycles industry has been an anomaly of an industry of cream with little milk?

Fast forward from the 90s and there appears to be a greater interest in cycling and the demand for human crafted items appears to be increasing in general, not just in cycling. Combine these two things and society’s demand for hand made bicycles is outstripping the manufacturing capability of the old guard, so people are filling that void. Maybe this is just an adjustment of the hand made bicycling world to the regularly scheduled ratio of cream to milk?

[GSmith]

Thought-provoking OP and responses. My sense is that the growth is a function of supply and demand, and that eventually, as it always does, real brands will endure and those that just make stuff without creating any emotional context (the definition of a true brand) will fade away. Think about any enduring brand, and one or two emotions immediately come to mind. Nike: performance and competition, Volvo: safe and practical, and on and on. How many of these new builders will either grow into a true brand, or if they stay solo, establish enough of a personal reputation such that the mention of their name will evoke a strong, positive response? It's not enough to just make something that people want right now, you have to create a reason to believe that endures over time. Some will, some won't, and some of the current stalwarts will lose it... it's just the natural order of things.

[M_A_Martin]

That's an interesting way to look at it. But, it seems that many of these new frame builders are building the brand and the mystique first, and working on product and quality second.

It isn't new, but the question is, how does the new frame buyer tell the difference? Just because you haven't heard of a builder before, doesn't mean they're new, and just because you have heard of a builder before, doesn't mean they're good. And just because a builder has been around a while, doesn't mean they're good either (I realize that there are limits to that statement)

[e-RICHIE]

my watch stopped 15 minutes into the ride and i ended up doing a 100 minute
'cross workout atmo. man am i gonna be deep into the endorphinage or whatmo?
tan lines rock.

[Roman]

Thought-provoking OP and responses. My sense is that the growth is a function of supply and demand, and that eventually, as it always does, real brands will endure and those that just make stuff without creating any emotional context (the definition of a true brand) will fade away. Think about any enduring brand, and one or two emotions immediately come to mind. Nike: performance and competition, Volvo: safe and practical, and on and on. How many of these new builders will either grow into a true brand, or if they stay solo, establish enough of a personal reputation such that the mention of their name will evoke a strong, positive response? It's not enough to just make something that people want right now, you have to create a reason to believe that endures over time. Some will, some won't, and some of the current stalwarts will lose it... it's just the natural order of things.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../rapaille.html


I'm with Clotaire:

{When asked by Folgers} "Coffee is a commodity. How can we own something that the others do not own?" My experience is that when there is a code, it's more complex than that. There is a code and a consistency checklist. Everything has to be on code. Everything you do should reinforce the code; not just the packaging or the communication should be on code. The leaflet, the brochures, everything should be on code. And if you are the first one to position yourself like that, knowing all the different aspects, you have a competitive edge. They might try to copy, but they don't know the formula; they don't know the code behind it.

For example, aroma is number one. Why? Because we imprint the aroma first, not the taste. Aroma is imprinted at a very early age, when you are around 2. Ah, and it means home, mother, feeding you, love and so on. A large majority, 90-something percent of Americans, love the aroma of coffee. Only 47 percent like the taste.

I don't know if you remember this commercial, but it was really on code. You have a young guy coming from the Army in a uniform. Mother is upstairs asleep. He goes directly to the kitchen, "Psssst," open the coffee, and the smell -- you know, because we designed the packaging to make sure that you smelled it right away. He prepares coffee; coffee goes up; the smell goes upstairs; the mother is asleep; she wakes up; she smiles. And we know the word she is going to say, because the code for aroma is "home." So she is going to say, "Oh, he is home." She rushed down the stairs, hugged the boy. I mean, we tested it. At P&G they test everything 400 times. People were crying. Why? Because we got the logic of emotion right."




atmo's shop, his frames smell like spumante. North Jersey, Asbury Park, brings me back. That's why I am a repeat customer.

[e-RICHIE]

who would get more tail, a framebuilder or a marine biologist atmo?

[maunahaole]

The answer to that question might change depending on if the framebuilder in question was already getting more tail than Sinatra. Sinatra is ahead of marine biologists in the tail department, even from the grave.

[M_A_Martin]

who would get more tail, a framebuilder or a marine biologist atmo?[

Survey says:
Frame builder

[e-RICHIE]

The answer to that question might change depending on if the framebuilder in question was already getting more tail than Sinatra. Sinatra is ahead of marine biologists in the tail department, even from the grave.

a maunahaole in one, bro.
you get it!

gotta get back to the forge...

[Curt Goodrich]

That's an interesting way to look at it. But, it seems that many of these new frame builders are building the brand and the mystique first, and working on product and quality second.

It isn't new, but the question is, how does the new frame buyer tell the difference? Just because you haven't heard of a builder before, doesn't mean they're new, and just because you have heard of a builder before, doesn't mean they're good. And just because a builder has been around a while, doesn't mean they're good either (I realize that there are limits to that statement)

Your first paragraph sums it up well for me. My original post might have sounded like I was complaining about my own business. I should have been more clear. I'm happy with my business and it's growing nicely. I guess I should just keep my head down and concern myself with what I'm doing. I think that's a paraphrase of Swoop's advice. I do that most of the time and will try to do it more.

[Shinomaster]

When I got into cycling in 1990 I'd visit Belmont Wheel Works and just ogle the wall of beautiful lugged framesets. There were beautiful painted and chromed bikes from Colnago, Bianchi, Derosa, Pinarello, Serotta, Davidson, Peter Mooney and others I don't remember. There was never a question about these frames being well made or well designed. It was way better than the porn shops in Chinatown to this kid.
A few years ago when I visited almost everything was either aluminum, carbon, Ti, or Tig. Hardy anything with lugs was hanging around. I think there are a lot of people who miss that stuff and want to bring it back. I'll never get that lugged Bianchi or Pinarello that I always wanted, but I can get a Vanilla (maybe) or a Zank. Lugged frames obviously never died but they became much harder to get. I think it would be great if Bianchi and Pinarello brought back lugged steel a la Colnago and Derosa.

[agilismerlin]

shino,

you will be shocked by what Bianchi is bringing back next year...................... :thrasher:

lugs of chrome, celeste

[e-RICHIE]

Lugged frames obviously never died but they became much harder to get.

JOE GILLES- "You're Norma Desmond, you used to be in pictures. You used to be big."
NORMA- "I am big, it's the pictures that got small."