Bicycle Quarterly Reviews the Love #3

[e-RICHIE]

I just returned <cut>

thanks for the reply jan atmo.

[Jonathan]

Grant Peterson has bias too. Some of what he says can be laughed off, but I've never seen him peddle intellectual dishonesty and he'd certainly not do that to a certain brand with print. I don't think Grant's name fits well here.

[DOOFUS]

I'll go first.

That's some first rate hubris.

Why can't you just figure out that you mis-sized a bike?

[mschol17]

...
First, we never said that we “didn’t like” the Pegoretti. ...

No, but you did say, "Overall, the appeal of the Pegoretti probably lies more in the name and the story behind the brand, rather than the actual bike." Read that sentence again and tell me you're not calling into question the work of the guy who built Miguel Indurain's bikes.

Also, a few pages later in the issue you disregard the British cycling magazine's test of "old vs. new" because the old bike was too small. How does this not invalidate everything you say about the Pegoretti?

[jerk]

I just returned from a long ride this weekend, and was a bit surprised by the brouhaha on this list. It appears that few of the commenters have read the article, and that there are some misperceptions about what we wrote.

First, we never said that we “didn’t like” the Pegoretti. The summary of the article clearly says “It performs well under constant efforts” and the conclusion states “it offers a pleasant feel.” It’s not a bad bike. Was it the best bike we’ve ever ridden? No, but I think we clearly state the reasons why.

Regarding the fit – I ride many bikes, and I found that bar height to the millimeter is not crucial for me. I rode the Pegoretti more in the drops than I would on most bikes, because the head tube extension pushed the bars higher up. When you measure how deep the drops are, you realize that 40 mm isn’t a huge deal. The Pegoretti's drops were deeper than the ones I usually ride, so the difference in the end was minor. And when you look at Fausto Coppi’s bikes, you see that he had his handlebars pretty high up, too. Didn’t slow him down much, did it?

I am concerned with bar reach – in fact, that is how I size my bikes. Looking over Pegoretti’s sizes, a smaller frame would have made the top tube much too short... Here are the sizes for the Love3:

Frame Geometry

I was surprised that Pegorettis apparently are sized for a more upright position than most performance-oriented riders prefer. The test bike had a huge 45 mm head tube extension, so it is sized like a conventional 62.5 cm frame (center-center), yet its top tube measured 57.5 cm. To get the bars 4 cm lower, we would have had to accept a 55 cm top tube! Now that would have affected the bike’s performance! (I know that Pegoretti offers custom frames, but my build is very normal, and I usually fit on stock bikes quite well.)

When you look at the Trek Madone we tested in the same issue, its bars also were a bit higher than I usually ride. It didn’t affect that bike’s performance, either. Both testers set some of their fastest times on the Trek.

Regarding the handling, the “pro racers don’t descend at the limit of adhesion” actually was a quote from Alex Stieda, the first North American to wear the yellow jersey in the Tour de France. He told the story how he tried to make up positions in the bunch on a descent, only to have Hinault's lieutenant ride up and tell him to "stop risking lives." Stieda may know more about pro racing than most on this forum.

When you ask motorcycle racers whether a motorbike on 23 mm tires pumped to 100 psi can handle well, they’ll laugh and tell you that they run much wider tires at 35 to 40 psi. As Hinault's lieutenant pointed out to Alex Stieda, bike races aren’t won descending. Otherwise, racing bikes would look quite different.

On to the next: While I enjoy riding long distances, we did not evaluate the Pegoretti as a brevet bike. We tested it as a racing bike – riding it up to 100 miles, climbing hills fast, descending, sprinting. I raced for 10 years, all the way up to Category 2, so I think I have a good idea what racing requires. If you don’t believe it, look at the power figures from our double-blind tests of frame stiffness. We managed to get up to about 900 Watts for uphill sprints, repeatedly, and could sustain 625 Watts. That doesn't put us in the league of Cancellara, but I doubt that many Pegoretti owners put out more. We didn’t complain that the Pegoretti doesn’t accept fenders or wide tires, or that it can’t carry luggage. We don’t expect that from a racing bike. We expect it to perform well, period.

We only test bikes that we think will appeal to our readers. I once rode a Pegoretti Marcelo for 15 miles, and rather liked it. When people told me that for true performance, we should go to the Love 3, we figured that we should test one of those. In the end, we just report what we find. There are some surprises, both to us and our readers. We liked a Trek Madone, we weren’t too fond of some steel bikes, we thought a French bike handled poorly… we call it as we see it.

Finally, we did pass the test report along to the importer, Gita, asking them to pass it along to Mr. Pegoretti. If they felt that we needed a different size, or that we had overlooked or misinterpreted something else, they should have said so. Which other publication allows the makers to comment before the test is published? And which prints there comments alongside the original test article. Gita and Dario Pegoretti chose not to reply… which is fine, too.

To summarize, the Pegoretti’s sizing gives you a hint at its apparent audience. It’s sized for casual riders who don’t want to/can’t stretch out on the bike like a racer. It feels good under constant efforts, but for us, it worked less well in all-out sprints. But then, casual riders don't sprint... Now you can argue that casual riders might be better on wider tires that offer more comfort, but that overlooks the strong aesthetic appeal of a racing bike with narrow tires. As an aesthetic choice, I can see the Love3's appeal.

In the end, most purchases are aesthetic choices, anyhow. People buy a Porsche or Ferrari because they like the looks, the story behind it, but not because they will get from A to B faster than they would in a Subaru WRX Sti. There is nothing wrong with aesthetic choices, but magazine tests have to provide the facts. The aesthetic choices are up to the readers. That way, Porsche drivers aren't disappointed when they get passed by a well-driven Subaru on the twisty road in the mountains. That is why we never have a "Bike of the Year" or even a comparison test – each bike appeals to different people. If you like your Pegoretti, then it is the right bike for you.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
Vintage Bicycle Press -- Home Page

jan-
you are wrong. that bike's contact points may have been within an acceptable range for you but it certainly didn't fit you. that bike is a 60cm frame and had you been able to measure the effective top tube length you would have found it to be 58,5 with a 72' seat tube angle. dario does drop the toptube on his larger bikes and extends the seat and headtube to accomodate. that being said, his headtubes are quite long- a benefit to most athletes as it allows for the use of fewer spaces. managing one of the largest pegoretti dealers around, i can tell you that more than a few bikes leave with some of the head tube cut down.

you should know that dario knows how to design proper racing bikes, and were you to set your saddle set back up to the same place, you would have fit quite comfortably on a 54cm or 55cm stock frame. top tube length is not a measurement that can be taken out of context or alone as i hope you know.

the bike didn't wow you. that's fine, it doesn't wow everyone. that's why there are a lot of different styles of bikes out there. that being said, you were clearly riding a bike several sizes too big for you and commenting on i's ride quality in any way is fundamentally ignorant. you claim to be an historian of the sport, you should know then that were you take fabian cancellara and put him in a way-back machine to 1973, he'd fit on merckx's bike perfectly. sure, the 62cm molteni thing would have a lot less exposed seatpost than his 55cm specialized- but his hands, feet and ass would be in the same place as it is on his modern bike. ahead stems extend upwards sligtly compared to -17 degree quills, hoods are mounted much higher on the bars and the handlebar drop is much less severe. think about things like this before you try to translate arbitrary numbers like "trail" and top tube length across time epochs. you need to examine the whole. the bike is more than the sum of its measurements and you do a disservice to great bike builders and designers by not being capable or educated enough to truly understand the discourse you attempt to reflect upon.

craig/jerk

[Jan Heine]

No, but you did say, "Overall, the appeal of the Pegoretti probably lies more in the name and the story behind the brand, rather than the actual bike." Read that sentence again and tell me you're not calling into question the work of the guy who built Miguel Indurain's bikes.

You make my point for me. Who designed and who built Indurain's Pinarellos has little bearing on our test... but it underscores the appeal of the brand.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
Vintage Bicycle Press -- Home Page

[FlynRide]

jan-
you are wrong. that bike's contact points may have been within an acceptable range for you but it certainly didn't fit you. that bike is a 60cm frame and had you been able to measure the effective top tube length you would have found it to be 58,5 with a 72' seat tube angle. dario does drop the toptube on his larger bikes and extends the seat and headtube to accomodate. that being said, his headtubes are quite long- a benefit to most athletes as it allows for the use of fewer spaces. managing one of the largest pegoretti dealers around, i can tell you that more than a few bikes leave with some of the head tube cut down.

you should know that dario knows how to design proper racing bikes, and were you to set your saddle set back up to the same place, you would have fit quite comfortably on a 54cm or 55cm stock frame. top tube length is not a measurement that can be taken out of context or alone as i hope you know.

the bike didn't wow you. that's fine, it doesn't wow everyone. that's why there are a lot of different styles of bikes out there. that being said, you were clearly riding a bike several sizes too big for you and commenting on i's ride quality in any way is fundamentally ignorant. you claim to be an historian of the sport, you should know then that were you take fabian cancellara and put him in a way-back machine to 1973, he'd fit on merckx's bike perfectly. sure, the 62cm molteni thing would have a lot less exposed seatpost than his 55cm specialized- but his hands, feet and ass would be in the same place as it is on his modern bike. ahead stems extend upwards sligtly compared to -17 degree quills, hoods are mounted much higher on the bars and the handlebar drop is much less severe. think about things like this before you try to translate arbitrary numbers like "trail" and top tube length across time epochs. you need to examine the whole. the bike is more than the sum of its measurements and you do a disservice to great bike builders and designers by not being capable or educated enough to truly understand the discourse you attempt to reflect upon.

craig/jerk

...in the words of Emeril, "Bam".

[zetroc]

Hi Jan, thanks for posting.

Where did you get the idea to review the bike? Did you have any prior experience with, or preconceptions of, Pegoretti-built bikes?

[Sasha]

All feelings about the BQ article aside, Jan should be welcomed as a member to this forum. Iconoclastic, perhaps. Committed to cycling, definitely. As anyone that lives in Seattle will tell you, this guy logs a ton of miles and is a serious supporter of a cycling niche. One may disagree with his opinions, but they come from an informed position.

[Roman]

Jan- thanks for taking on the crowd- The intent is clear in that quote posted my mschol that you wished to undermine the merit of the Pegoretti, and your hubris here is now taking on Clintonian dimensions by the post- It's rather amusing- Why not say that you simply didn't like the bike?

Here's a beginning: So I understand, your article stated is that it was possible, then, that you criticized the bicycle, but you have no specific recollection of that ever happening?

Do the bicycles you review ever allow you to backpedal at all, or are they all fixed from the start?

[dbrk]

All feelings about the BQ article aside, Jan should be welcomed as a member to this forum....snip... One may disagree with his opinions, but they come from an informed position.

Ironically stated, there's nothing about how this bike was fit that suggests an informed position. Welcome, Jan. The bike you reviewed was at least three sizes too big for you. Trust me on this one.

[soBRIquet]

We only test bikes that we think will appeal to our readers. I once rode a Pegoretti Marcelo for 15 miles, and rather liked it.
Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
Vintage Bicycle Press -- Home Page

Can you recall what size the Marcelo was?
I know it was only a 15 mile ride, but in the context of the criticism you're receiving and the fact that the Marcelo was the catalyst for the test, that would be interesting to know.

[Jan Heine]

a 72' seat tube angle [...]were you to set your saddle set back up to the same place, you would have fit quite comfortably on a 54cm or 55cm stock frame.

Craig,

I don't see how that could work. My racing bike had a 74 degree seat tube angle. So if I slide the seat forward a bit to get the same setback on the smaller 54 cm Pegoretti with 73.5 degree seat tube, I'd shorten the reach to the bars. A 54 cm already has a 55 cm top tube, or 2 cm shorter than I'd like.

you need to examine the whole. the bike is more than the sum of its measurements and you do a disservice to great bike builders and designers by not being capable or educated enough to truly understand the discourse you attempt to reflect upon.

We always examine the whole. You allude to our research into front-end geometry. When we started out with our technical analyses, the general belief was "more trail = bike more stable." Now we know that wider tires require different geometries, and so do handlebar bags. We know that front-end geometry depends on your weight distribution, and whether you sit upright or have your bars lower. As you point out, bikes are much more complex than many realize.

But we also know that human bodies are adaptable. When you look at handlebar height across the decades, you will see that it's varied, and there is no one way to fit a bike for speed. However, at least since the 1930s, racers generally have had the handlebars no higher than the saddle. Coincidentally, that is my cutoff - I can ride bikes (with the appropriate reach) just fine, as long as the bars aren't higher than the saddle. The "ideal" reach changes a bit with bar height, of course, because your arms rotate forward as they go up. For a bike test, we aren't trying to set absolute best times, but trying to get a feel for the bike. For that, minor compromises in fit are acceptable, and inevitable. Also note that I am used to testing bikes, so perhaps I am a bit more adaptable than most.

However, if Dario Pegoretti or Gita want to send us a bike that they think will perform better, we'd love to test it. It's not like the current article is the final word on the subject.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
Vintage Bicycle Press -- Home Page

[Johny]

Regarding the handling, the ?pro racers don?t descend at the limit of adhesion? actually was a quote from Alex Stieda, the first North American to wear the yellow jersey in the Tour de France. He told the story how he tried to make up positions in the bunch on a descent, only to have Hinault's lieutenant ride up and tell him to "stop risking lives." Stieda may know more about pro racing than most on this forum.
[/url]

You wrote "This means that bike handling may be less important for professional racers than it is for enthusiast riders who like to explore the limits of tire adhesion as they enjoy their bikes."

What are you trying to say by misquoting Mr. Stieda? He was asked to slow down in that race and this does not mean that he does not care about bicycle handing. In fact, he has training camps teaching people how to ride and handle bicycle like pros for their safety and enjoyment. Alex Stieda Cycling Experience - Exceptional Cycling Experiences

"Alex has brought together a host of men and women professional riders, Olympic and World Champions, plus mechanics, shop owners and friends to explain the universe of cycling. All skills are covered including cornering, braking , climbing descending, clothing, strategies for riding in traffic and even getting to know your local bike shop!

More details at http://www.thesmoothride.net/" Alex Stieda Cycling Experience - Exceptional Cycling Experiences

Finally, we did pass the test report along to the importer, Gita, asking them to pass it along to Mr. Pegoretti. If they felt that we needed a different size, or that we had overlooked or misinterpreted something else, they should have said so. Which other publication allows the makers to comment before the test is published? And which prints there comments alongside the original test article. Gita and Dario Pegoretti chose not to reply? which is fine, too.

Any result from a bad experiment means nothing. If you don't know it's a bad experiment, well.

[Archibald]

So, what's this thread about?

[slowtwitch]

So, what's this thread about?

All I can make out is 'dudes', 'panties' and 'twisted'.


st

[Jan Heine]

Can you recall what size the Marcelo was?
I know it was only a 15 mile ride, but in the context of the criticism you're receiving and the fact that the Marcelo was the catalyst for the test, that would be interesting to know.

That was years ago. I don't remember the exact size, but the bike was a bit cramped. That is why I asked George Gibbs of Il Vecchio to find me a larger one. And I rode the Marcelo alone, without timing myself, so it's hard to separate feel from actual performance. That is why we did a full test this time, rather than a subjective impression... Realistically, I know when a bike doesn't fit, and I wouldn't test it if I can't put out power. As mentioned in the article, I did one of my better times up Zoo Hill on Cougar Mountain on the Pegoretti. My power output was fine.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
Vintage Bicycle Press -- Home Page

[davids]

Craig,

I don't see how that could work. My racing bike had a 74 degree seat tube angle. So if I slide the seat forward a bit to get the same setback on the smaller 54 cm Pegoretti with 73.5 degree seat tube, I'd shorten the reach to the bars. A 54 cm already has a 55 cm top tube, or 2 cm shorter than I'd like.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
Vintage Bicycle Press -- Home Page

Jan,

Your stem is too short.

[Archibald]

All I can make out is 'dudes', 'panties' and 'twisted'.


st

Twisted panties usually only generate around 100 replies. We're almost double that. Must be something else. Ferris?

[jimi]

Jan,

Your stem is too short.

If my crappy memory isn't failing me... I think there was a 10cm stem on the Peg.

jimi