Bicycle Quarterly Reviews the Love #3

[josh]

AC's bike from this decade.

I'm not sure if your intent was to demonstrate that riders in this decade need more saddle-to-bar drop (so pardon me if this seems confrontational when it need not be), but all one needs to do is peruse the VeloNews galleries for a minute or two before you see a pro bike with a stack of spacers under their stem. Tyler Farrar comes to mind.

[justinf]

I'm not sure if your intent was to demonstrate that riders in this decade need more saddle-to-bar drop (so pardon me if this seems confrontational when it need not be), but all one needs to do is peruse the VeloNews galleries for a minute or two before you see a pro bike with a stack of spacers under their stem. Tyler Farrar comes to mind.

Those spacers are a function of the smaller frame size, and the bike still has athletic drop and reach. It's a far cry from that ridiculous review bike.

[henry g.]

based on your observation (and henry's link w pics) there's not alotta that low trail thing goin' on atmo.
how does the rank and file reader juxtapose all the science chat about trail and planing and wide tires
with the race results (going waaaaaaaaaaaaay past the first 20 at least) and understand the noise that's
being made about these much propped and said-to-be-oh-so-necessary details?

Still, if I were riding unsupported and carrying everything on the bike I'd pick a Rando over any of those racing bikes. If I had a support vehicle following me to do everything but wipe my butt then I'd dump the bag and increase the trail to suit the unloaded front. Probably dump the fenders as support would have dry clothes ready. In which case a stage racing rig would be just perfect. Horses for courses.

[josh]

Those spacers are a function of the smaller frame size, and the bike still has athletic drop and reach. It's a far cry from that ridiculous interview bike.

My intent was to compare modern road bikes with the Alex Singer posted back on page 5, not the ill-fitting Love 3. As I understood it, the statement was made that the Singer would be un-raceable due to the handlebar position, and I am simply pointing out how normal the position actually is.

[e-RICHIE]

Still, if I were riding unsupported and carrying everything on the bike I'd pick a Rando over any of those racing bikes. If I had a support vehicle following me to do everything but wipe my butt then I'd dump the bag and increase the trail to suit the unloaded front. Making the bike a lot closer to your typical race rig. Horses for courses.

it sounds like there was a paradigm shift wrt the racing and the equipment some time
between when de gaulle ruled and when those pics were taken on the link you found.
perhaps some folks didn't get the memo atmo.

[DOOFUS]

it's not saddle to bar drop, it's where the handlebar drops are

you don't see a lot of bikes with the drops in the middle of the head tube, unless it's a tall rider on a big frame.

front ends got lower in the 90s. some genius (used sincerely) uploaded the whole 1985 Ghent Wevelgem to youtube. Look at a lot of those guys in the drops. Backs more hunched and a bit more upright than today.

look, that Singer is a great bike and the webpage setup is perfect for its likely application -- some older guy (and I'm one of those at 44) riding and having fun with his buds. If it was 1970, it would be a race setup. it ain't the ideal setup for someone who would ride that saddle height to go out and kick some ass against Pucci's CCB mafia in 2010.

this is getting so 2005 Serotta forum. if your bars are high or you ride a french fit bike, that's cool. just don't start arguing that if all the 25-year-old cat 1s started riding like that they'd be faster, or that when you setup that Dogma that was three sizes too large with a french fit it rode like shit, so that must mean it's a mediocre bike. then you just look silly.

(second person plural, all of that -- ain't meant in no particular direction)

[DOOFUS]

My intent was to compare modern road bikes with the Alex Singer posted back on page 5, not the ill-fitting Love 3. As I understood it, the statement was made that the Singer would be un-raceable due to the handlebar position, and I am simply pointing out how normal the position actually is.

I didn't say it was unraceable. you could race that. you'd also be in a position that was more 1970 than 2010. Is it possible that there is someone who would ride that saddle height would have a flat back and good hip angle without a ton of elbow bend with the drops that high? Sure. It's hard to tell from the pics -- what's the frame size? What's the seat height? A really tall guy is going to have his drops in the middle of the head tube and it's still going to work out in a racing position. Somebody five ten, not so much. That bike doesn't look like it was made for somebody six three -- but I may be completely wrong.

when you start to notice that Indurain's bike has a dropped top tube -- and would be showing a couple cm more seatpost to give you an idea of seat height to frame size, then you go back to that Singer, I think you see that the drops on the Singer are still on the high side....

[Hawker]

A ton of riders in PBP do not follow the Bicycle Quarterly prescription for rando bikes.

How do we know? Because BQ did a survey of riders from the USA in 2007.

Among the findings:

- 22% of the bikes had carbon fiber frames; 9% were aluminum; 26% Ti; 42% steel. There was 1% "other" (wood? bamboo? unobtanium?)

- Only 5% of all riders had tires larger than 28mm.

Findings here:

http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/BQPBPEquipsurvey.pdf

Jan also tried to correlate equipment with DNF, and did not find that either "rando type" bikes or "lightweight modern racing bikes" gave riders any noticeable advantage in finishing, though riders stated a preference for better racks and bags, lighting, and fenders.

For those who don't want to click through to the PDF, here are the conclusions:


"... A “typical” randonneur
bike does not exist. A few trends begin to emerge where
randonneurs are diverging from “mainstream” cyclists: About half
use traditional leather saddles, half use generator hubs, and more
than a quarter wear wool jerseys.

"Overall, randonneurs were not entirely satisfied with their equipment.
Users of rear rack-top bags and battery-powered lights are
likely to look for alternatives. Even experienced randonneurs commonly
found their equipment to be unsatisfactory. However, users
of generator-powered headlights and fenders were comparatively
happy with these equipment choices.

"... we found little evidence that wheels with few
spokes (≤24) had more problems than “standard” wheels with 32
or more spokes. However, randonneurs are not satisfied with the
“accessories” that are essential for their sport (bags, racks, lights,
clothing)...

"...For the most part, randonneuring is a sport where outcomes
are determined by the riders and not by the equipment. Other factors
appear to be much more important than equipment choices.
Although riders without fenders were much more likely to have
serious problems related to road spray during this rainy PBP, there
are many individual riders who did not use fenders and finished
PBP without problems.

"These results are of interest not only to randonneurs, but to all
riders who participate in long events. We found no consistent evidence
that bikes with racing-oriented equipment provided a speed
advantage over more completely equipped bicycles, among riders
with similar goals. Considering this, it makes sense to use the bike
that is most comfortable, most reliable, and that best protects the
rider from rain and road spray. Unsatisfactory equipment can be a
distraction, whereas a perfectly working bike can contribute greatly
to the enjoyment of the ride."

[Dazza]

there is no doubt that Jan is proficient in riding at perpetual motion speeds for many hours with little sleep, {with Caffeine tablets as mentioned in his mag}
Bravo
well done in his chosen challenges
I reckon that is a top ride he did at PBP and I do really love the fact he did it on an old bike.
But was that bike the best tool for the job?,
I don't know
in fact I don't really care
unless a client speaks to me about this during the design and selection phase of a build project

I am still waiting for some one to explain this to me, with a rational that has logic and fact

"To my surprise, the bike and I could go significantly faster. The bike was not giving me feedback about how hard I was working. Unlike more flexible frames, it was not enticing me to try harder and go faster."
this reads to me as, because the bike did not give me all the usual signs that thin, small diameter tubing gives me, like shake and shimmy, rubbing FD, {planing} when I leaned on the pedals , so I did not realise I could go faster by pedaling harder, and he was surprised by this. No surprise for me. It seems the bike was just there, which seems a good thing to me

"the handlebars were about 40 mm higher than I would prefer. Even so, it did not seem to limit my performance."
this reads to me that despite the increased areo dynamic drag due to being more up right on the bike, he did not go slower, the bike made up for this? Some how?

"I was not prepared for the Pegoretti's lack of acceleration."
This is only a subjective perception
or how was this measured?
It is hard to grunt bike from a standing start with the handle bars that high, so the position would have made it biomechanically difficult, so no surprise one finds it hard to make an effort


"I found the Pegoretti too unstable to inspire confidence."
Perception? OK, personal opinion being very used to riding his French geo bikes?
Could he not ride no hands at 20kph, oor 40kph or 60 kph, and I could not have a balanced body weight with my bars too high and on a bike too big, so explain this to me

"Overall, the appeal of the Pegoretti probably lies more in the name and the story behind the brand, rather than the actual bike."

he tests one wrongly sized bike and maybe in a manner the bike was never intended to be ridden and he makes the assumption that it is all just a name, a marketing hoax. Well having worked with high performance cycling for many years, and made some frames that won medals at world Champs, and now doing some interesting projects with Dario I can tell any one, Dario Pegoretti has lot of knowledge and skill, and the passion and worked some long hours and he knows his stuff. He may not be converesed with riding PBP, but then he never set out to be and proclaims he is, does he?
and there is lots for me to learn from Dario and I am enjoying this


"This means that bike handling may be less important for professional racers than it is for enthusiast riders who like to explore the limits of tire adhesion as they enjoy their bikes."

This is just total nonsense.
but I hope the second bottle of red wine was nice.

Lunch is over, back to my track fork filing

[Dazza]

Still, if I were riding unsupported and carrying everything on the bike I'd pick a Rando over any of those racing bikes. If I had a support vehicle following me to do everything but wipe my butt then I'd dump the bag and increase the trail to suit the unloaded front. Probably dump the fenders as support would have dry clothes ready. In which case a stage racing rig would be just perfect. Horses for courses.

I have got every issue of VBQ and BQ mag
and Jan has changed his speak about the low geo trial

at first Jan spruiked the virtues of low geo trail for handle bar bags and touring bikes
and that works, no arguement from me, never.
but in recent issues it is not just randos it is now race bikes, race bikes for pros and that millions of frame builders have got it wrong and all the riders have been decieved by this.

[vredstein]

well, at least he picked on someone that isn't going to be hurt by his review.

It's interesting how the review contains many points that would be invalid whether he was riding a quality machine or a POS. He managed to support the review with universally irrelevant assertions.

[justinf]

I have got every issue of VBQ and BQ mag
and Jan has changed his speak about the low geo trial

at first Jan spruiked the virtues of low geo trail for handle bar bags and touring bikes
and that works, no arguement from me, never.
but in recent issues it is not just randos it is now race bikes, race bikes for pros and that millions of frame builders have got it wrong and all the riders have been decieved by this.

an excellent answer to the rhetorical question.

[pdmtong]

I dont' believe everything I read in a review. It's important to understand the particular biases and nuances of the reviewer before making a conculsion relevant to self. Ever notice how car and driver or road and track will NEVER rate a lexus above a BMW? do you believe every restaurant review you read? I know people here want to defend dario (me too) for this "injustice" but jeez, anyone buying a Peg presumably has the minimum experience to see through this review and just ignore it for the outlier it is.

[Human Epic Jolt]

Landis, what do you think?

[henry g.]

I have got every issue of VBQ and BQ mag
and Jan has changed his speak about the low geo trial

at first Jan spruiked the virtues of low geo trail for handle bar bags and touring bikes
and that works, no arguement from me, never.
but in recent issues it is not just randos it is now race bikes, race bikes for pros and that millions of frame builders have got it wrong and all the riders have been decieved by this.

What's the cut off for considering a bike low trail? For a 700c rando with a bag a trail around 40 is typical. Lose the bag but keep the 25-28c tires and go to a trail around 50. I'd think that's "low" trail but not all that much lower then modern bikes.

[SteveP]

i thk its clear that for racing you should use a race bike.

the rest is an attempt to
"subvert the dominant paradigm"
maybe they will use mid 50s race cars at indianapolis next year?

roman??
delivery free?

[SteveP]

Lunch is over, back to my track fork filing

low trail fork?

[Too Tall]

Made me curious:
PBP 2007 Time Results

Of the first 20 fastest finishers whose bikes appear in their pictures all appear to be on modern racing bikes -one was on a Specialized and 2 others on Look CF racing bikes. Others were not identifiable but no bags and skinny tires with center-mount side pull brakes on all.

Pardon the interruption. Many if not most of the front pack are supported by family and friends at each control point. The pace is very hard...they don't (cough) sit up much. Last, brevet riding is a common man sport. Most folks ride what they have on hand and adapt. The bike is the bike. Peace, Josh

PBP / tandem 1999, 2003 me and the old lady
http://www.randonneurs.bc.ca/pbp/tim...3_tandems.html (simonds/chaitt)
http://www.randonneurs.bc.ca/pbp/tim...9_tandems.html (simonds/chaitt)

[El Chaba]

It took some searching, but I found a photo of some of the PBP finishers beyond the top 20....and as predicted, some were using "traditional" equipment.....I think I see some Berthoud canvas bags in there

[Michael White]

It's all in the details--woolens, tweed, straps and badges . . . hard to find a truly authentic source on the internet.