Argonaut Cycles

[Carl S]

I think Richard has a good point that I should think long and hard about the money I spend on advertising and the dollar return it's likely to give. That being said, I would like to expand my business and do have the capacity to make more frames. My wait list has always been between 4-6 months, which I'm comfortable with. Looking down the road, I think it's worth spending money building the brand as that has the potential to open up other opportunities in the industry outside of just making frames. Whether or not, or even how I take advantage of them remains to be seen, but I'd like those opportunities to be there either way.

Hi Ben, a couple of questions, what do you think your annual production capacity is and what is your break even?

Also you suggested you were open to other opportunities, do you have any in mind?

And finally, Portland is a pretty crowded place for framebuilders. What percentage of your sales come from customers who can drive to place their order vs call? Also, most builders in Portland seem to follow a similar theme, most are lugged or fillet with a heavy emphasis on arty bikes designed for commute/rando/utility. How does your brand compare and what makes Argonaut different?

Thanks and good luck. BTW, your site looks very nice.

[steve garro]

I think Richard has a good point that I should think long and hard about the money I spend on advertising and the dollar return it's likely to give.

Off to the races, Man! OR has such a killer race scene. I would sell at least one or two units at every Cascade Cream Puff i ever went to. free bike show at every event. - Garro.

[bfarver]

Hi Ben, a couple of questions, what do you think your annual production capacity is and what is your break even?

Also you suggested you were open to other opportunities, do you have any in mind?

And finally, Portland is a pretty crowded place for framebuilders. What percentage of your sales come from customers who can drive to place their order vs call? Also, most builders in Portland seem to follow a similar theme, most are lugged or fillet with a heavy emphasis on arty bikes designed for commute/rando/utility. How does your brand compare and what makes Argonaut different?

Thanks and good luck. BTW, your site looks very nice.

Hi Carl,

I attended your lecture at the '08 NAHBS here in Portland and still refer back to my notes. I think your business model is one of the best in this industry.

The business is supporting itself right now, but I'm not taking home much. Making 20 frames a year with 60-70% of those being complete builds would allow me to take home a modest salary, but without much additional money to put back in the business. Right now if I really put the gas on I could put out 25 bikes, and I'm getting increasingly mechanized. I think I could get to 30 frames annually in the next couple of years, and at that point the numbers look pretty good.

Down the road, I think there's an opportunity to introduce a sub brand of less custom bikes where I'm not doing 100% of the labor. I'm not talking about shipping in frames from China. Maybe a stock lugged and TIG'd frame. Now don't gasp, but I think that as carbon becomes more of a mainstay in the production market, there will be an increase in demand for high end custom carbon. I'd look at carbon as another opportunity for a sub brand.

[bfarver]

Hi Ben, a couple of questions, what do you think your annual production capacity is and what is your break even?

Also you suggested you were open to other opportunities, do you have any in mind?

And finally, Portland is a pretty crowded place for framebuilders. What percentage of your sales come from customers who can drive to place their order vs call? Also, most builders in Portland seem to follow a similar theme, most are lugged or fillet with a heavy emphasis on arty bikes designed for commute/rando/utility. How does your brand compare and what makes Argonaut different?

Thanks and good luck. BTW, your site looks very nice.

Sorry, I forgot about your second question. Very few of my sales come from portland, but I'm seeing a slight increase lately. Comparatively, I think my bikes are more road and race oriented. Rando/utility/commuter bikes don't really fire me up, so I don't really push or try to excel in those areas. Weight is a factor when I think about building frames, and I'm pretty reluctant to use a 1" steerer for any application. At the risk of sounding cliche, I see my brand as performance oriented steel with an emphasis on aesthetics and craftsmanship. My core market is high end road, and I'm certainly not alone in that category here in Portland. But, like you said, a lot of the other builders in this city focus more on the commuter and utility markets.

[e-RICHIE]

Down the road, I think there's an opportunity to introduce a sub brand of less custom bikes where I'm not doing 100% of the labor. I'm not talking about shipping in frames from China. Maybe a stock lugged and TIG'd frame. Now don't gasp, but I think that as carbon becomes more of a mainstay in the production market, there will be an increase in demand for high end custom carbon. I'd look at carbon as another opportunity for a sub brand.

if you were to brand a secondary line, what card would you call on atmo?
what would be the reason one is drawn to these pre-fabbed frames?

[bfarver]

Off to the races, Man! OR has such a killer race scene. I would sell at least one or two units at every Cascade Cream Puff i ever went to. free bike show at every event. - Garro.

Definitely. The race scene here is awesome, and a great, fun, free marketing opportunity.

[bfarver]

if you were to brand a secondary line, what card would you call on atmo?
what would be the reason one is drawn to these pre-fabbed frames?

Potentially, the strength and popularity of the Argonaut brand could get the ball rolling for a sub brand, which would probably be at a lower price point. It would be more value based, and would have the potential to generate income when I'm not actually doing the labor.

Mind you, this isn't something that I'm planning on doing anytime soon. I like my lifestyle now and am not even sure I would want to unnecessarily complicate it with such an endeavor. It's just something I see as an option down the road, and marketing my brand now just gives me more options in the future.

[e-RICHIE]

Potentially, the strength and popularity of the Argonaut brand could get the ball rolling for a sub brand, which would probably be at a lower price point. It would be more value based, and would have the potential to generate income when I'm not actually doing the labor.

Mind you, this isn't something that I'm planning on doing anytime soon. I like my lifestyle now and am not even sure I would want to unnecessarily complicate it with such an endeavor. It's just something I see as an option down the road, and marketing my brand now just gives me more options in the future.

your biggest revenue source is and will be selling assembled bicycles (only)
and also making the frames you want to make rather than the ones you have
to atmo. there is only one ben farver. think globally, exploit locally.

[conorb]

your biggest revenue source is and will be selling assembled bicycles (only)
and also making the frames you want to make rather than the ones you have
to atmo. there is only one ben farver. think globally, exploit locally.

+1 on this. It's about the relationship and the experience and how you reflect that to your brand.

What is the promise of your brand? <somewhat rhetorically>

A value/down market/low cost strategy (I think) hurts you in the long run.

In watch circles there's an old/wise saying - "buy the seller, not the watch."

Conor

[bfarver]

+1 on this. It's about the relationship and the experience and how you reflect that to your brand.

What is the promise of your brand? <somewhat rhetorically>

A value/down market/low cost strategy (I think) hurts you in the long run.

In watch circles there's an old/wise saying - "buy the seller, not the watch."

Conor

Very true. I go back and forth on this one for sure. What would I rather have 20 years down the road? One solid brand that has the respect of the market and my peers, or a random smattering of different projects that don't amount to much. Definitely one solid brand.

I still think there's value in taking advantage of all kinds of advertising. I sort of bitch about it, but in the end it's fun and keeps things interesting. The actual frame building is my favorite thing to do day to day, but I also enjoy design, layout and coming up with ads. This add in the Rocky Mountain Flyer isn't all that expensive anyway. It's not like I have the inside cover of Bicycling.

[e-RICHIE]

This add in the Rocky Mountain Flyer isn't all that expensive anyway.

how much is it and what return do you get on it atmo?
ps i am anti print ads so take that with a grain of salt,

[bfarver]

how much is it and what return do you get on it atmo?
ps i am anti print ads so take that with a grain of salt,

It's a bit over $150/month. I been able to directly attribute any sales yet, but It's only been in there for one issue. I think it takes a while to start to see a return on print advertising.

[e-RICHIE]

It's a bit over $150/month. I been able to directly attribute any sales yet, but It's only been in there for one issue. I think it takes a while to start to see a return on print advertising.

i hope you are on a contract for at least 18 issues atmo.
and make sure you see their ABC numbers to authenticate the circulation.
all zines furnish these as a matter of course, unless they have never been audited.

[steve garro]

Hey, Ben - what are the thoughts/features/logic behind the dropouts? Inquiring minds want to know - Garro.

[bfarver]

Hi Steve,

So sorry for the late reply. I've been out of town on a little vacation and am still getting caught up.

About a year and a half ago I had some custom dropouts made by Mark at Paragon because I just wasn't happy with the various mass produced rear dropouts. I prefer a stainless dropout as it allows for the axle interface to be left unpainted and thus avoid paint deterioration. The first run of dropouts I had made are bulletproof, but largely an aesthetic improvement over stock dropouts.

Plus, because they're entirely stainless, I machine a second slotted plug that fits into the stays. I feel this makes a stronger joint than just slotting the stay and filling it with silver. The problem with this is that making the plugs is fairly time consuming, and the overall process added a lot of time to my process, and the plugs also added unnecessary weight. So, I wanted to design a dropout that could be brass brazed to the frame but still have a bare axle interface. I also prefer the aesthetic of the Wright dropout style and feel it enables a faster fabrication process.

This led me to the two part design. Another bonus I found when designing these was that I could make an interchangeable horizontal piece. The final product is lighter, stiffer, and easier to fabricate than my old design. They are slightly more expensive, especially because the dropout (I differentiate the to pieces as a connector piece and dropout piece) is titanium. But, I feel they're worth it based on both the time they save me and the value they add to my frames.

[big shanty]

nice photos!

Inside Argonaut

[LovelyAngel]

nice photos!

Inside Argonaut

Thanks for the thumbs up!

And I am such a fussbudget about presentation... (^_~)

Here is the Inside Argonaut photo book in fancy presentation mode at Issuu.

(Your web browser needs to be Adobe Flash enabled.)

~Amy

[e-RICHIE]

Thanks for the thumbs up!

And I am such a fussbudget about presentation... (^_~)

Here is the Inside Argonaut photo book in fancy presentation mode at Issuu.

(Your web browser needs to be Adobe Flash enabled.)

~Amy

welcome amy atmo.

[Joel Benjamin L]

very nice book. well done. hope it gets you some publicity too.

[illnacord]

I kept seeing classic modern road builds on the Serotta forums re: Argonaut Cycles. That is, steel road framesets with Edge Composites / Reynolds SDV / Campy 11 or DA7900 builds. Now I can see why those high end builds were...

Photo book "Inside Argonaut": Inside Argonaut

The new track end by Argonaut, yeah!!!

track end.jpg