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    Default Kirk Frameworks

    As we go through life we have experiences that shape and guide us in both our personal and professional lives. Some of these experiences fade from memory over time and some never do. Below are a few anecdotes that have stuck with me and played a role in shaping me as a person, my choice of career, and the essence of Kirk Frameworks.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In the mid 1960’s many American military officers came back from tours of Europe with exotic cars they bought overseas. Living in Rome New York, next to the Griffiss Air Force base, meant there were a large number of foreign cars in the area that needed servicing. This was a time when foreign cars were truly foreign and you couldn’t bring your V12 Jaguar to the corner garage to have it serviced - so enthusiasts brought their cars to my father, John Kirk. His natural mechanical skills and knowledge of foreign cars made him very popular. So popular that it was normal to wake up on Saturday morning to see the driveway outside our apartment filled with British, German and Italian sports cars owned by men who wanted John’s help synchronizing their Weber carbs or deciphering the mystery that was Lucas electronics. I watched my dad work on the cars just for the joy of working with his hands on such exotic machinery. Bent over the cars, he used his experience and sensitive hands, eyes and ears to diagnose problems with ignition timing or carburetor jetting and with a few tweaks got the cars running as they were designed to run. Seeing the smiles on the owner’s faces told the story.

    It was at about this time that John gave me my first real bike. Despite the fact that he worked on expensive cars he didn’t make much money and couldn’t afford to buy me a new bike – so he built one for me. Using parts pulled from junk bikes he built me up a road bike with 20” wheels, drop handlebars and 3 speeds. He painted it British Racing Green and put my name on the chainguard in chrome letters. To me it was every bit as cool as the Aston Martin parked in the driveway on Saturday morning because he made it for me, with his own hands. This was my introduction to the idea that things like bikes and cars didn’t just pop out of a molds but were made by people using their knowledge, skill, and experience. I then understood that there were passionate craftsman hidden away in their shops building the things that we use and I knew that I wanted to become one of those craftsmen.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Once a year, Davis Phinney, leader of the Coors Light professional cycling team, would come to the Serotta factory for a few days to boost the morale, get his hands dirty, go for a ride with the shop guys and visit the birthplace of his bikes.

    The rides were a ‘no one gets dropped’ type of ride and they were a good time to hang out on the bike and talk. We were heading back to the factory at a casual 15 mph when one of our builders, Richard, started taunting Davis. Richard called him names and told him that he didn’t think that Davis could stay on his wheel. Richard then sprinted up the road ahead of the group and Davis just smiled and laughed. After Richard got a good 200 meters up the road Davis asked, “Should I reel him in?” We were approaching a corner that I knew was full of gravel and sand but before I could give a warning Davis flew out of the group and up the road. I’ve ridden with some very strong riders but I’ve never seen anyone accelerate that quickly before and he was going an easy 35 mph when he passed Richard and dove into that dirty corner. I thought for sure he’d go down in the gravel and imagined the huge road rash he’d have. Yet Davis counter-steered into the corner, laid the bike way over and two wheel drifted through the corner in complete control – gravel spitting out from under the tires. The look on Richard’s face was priceless.

    This was remarkable in two ways. The most obvious was that Davis had no trouble at all carving around the corner with so much junk in the road. He never backed off or stopped charging – he just railed it. The second was he did it on a bike I designed and built for him. Prior to racing Serottas he raced on ‘crit’ bikes with silly steep angles with short front-centers. While racing in Europe Davis realized that a solid stage race bike was the bike of choice for both long and short events and we built him stage race bikes from then on. I can’t tell you how cool it was to see my work put to that cornering test. It was rewarding to know that he trusted the bike so much. I’ll never forget that.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Shortly after I started Kirk Frameworks I started working on what would become the ‘Terraplane’ seatstay option. I’d worked on this kind of thing before when I designed the Serotta Hors Categorie and wanted to build on my previous work. While the Serotta-DKS worked well, I felt it had too much – too much stuff, too much weight, and too much travel. I wanted a more elegant and simple design that would keep the rear wheel firmly planted at all times.

    I worked on many designs and settled on a simple ‘S’ curve to the seat stays. I took Kirk frame #1, my personal bike, cut the seat stays off it and set it up so I could try different stays on that same bike. It took a long time to get the radius and duration of the bends right to give the desired spring rate and a lot of steel went into the recycling bin. After testing many stays on the same frame it looked like hell. It had burnt yellow paint, a rear wheel travel indicator brazed onto it and it looked like a school science project gone wrong. But I’d arrived at the final design and it rode wonderfully – stiff and responsive when out of the saddle yet calm and stuck to the ground in corners and when going downhill. Ripping around corners it had that same hunkered down feeling the DKS had but without any feeling of softness. I loved it.

    And then I started doubting myself. I’d cleaned the bike up and emailed photos of it to friends, family and a few customers along with an explanation of how it worked and waited for the positive feedback to come flowing in. It didn’t. Most feedback was negative and centered on how much they disliked the looks of the bike. I was pretty bummed. Even my mom said it looked ‘nice’ and you know what that means.

    I kept riding the one and only prototype and despite the negative feedback from others I loved the way it rode. I then thought of a Henry Ford quote from the time he invented the automobile. He said, “If I’d asked my customers what they wanted, they’d have said a faster horse.” With that in mind I decided to offer the Terraplane to see what would happen. The feedback online, before anyone had ridden one, was much the same as from my focus group – that thing is ugly and no one needs it. I even had ‘experts’ tell me that it doesn’t work. They’d never ridden one and didn’t know much about it, yet they knew it didn’t work. Alrighty then. But I kept it on the price list and over the next few months a few open-minded riders ordered them. Once I got them out there the owners started reporting back how they have never been able to corner so fast before – or they had never felt so confident descending. The customers were confirming what I already knew - that the Terraplane worked. In time other customers took a chance and they too liked the Terraplane. At this point, 6 years later, about 50% of my customers chose the Terraplane seat stay option.

    The Terraplane lesson was invaluable. It taught me that if I have a good idea and can back it up, I should get it out there and let the market decide if I was right. If I’d listened to the initially discouraging feedback I’d never have gotten the idea out there to let it prove its worth. It feels good to have done that. Ask any owner how they feel about their Terraplane and I’ll bet they’re glad I stuck with the idea.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The above are three of the many formative events that helped point me down my chosen path. I thank you for your time and look forward to answering your questions. As my literary hero Spaulding Gray once said – “I don’t promise answers, but I do promise responses.” Thanks so much to Richard and Josh for making this Smoked deal possible.

    Dave
    Last edited by e-RICHIE; 06-02-2010 at 09:33 AM. Reason: boldface added
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com


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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    So Dave, I've always considered you one of the more clever people I've ever known. What I mean by that is you are able to do a lot with a little and you seem to be able to create some of the most simple yet effective designs. Looking back over the years you've designed the DKS system, the Terraplane, you have just completed a beautiful new dropout design. Is there anything that you have designed that really sticks out as your masterpiece to date?
    Carl Strong
    Strong Frames Inc.
    www.strongframes.com

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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl S View Post
    So Dave, I've always considered you one of the more clever people I've ever known. What I mean by that is you are able to do a lot with a little and you seem to be able to create some of the most simple yet effective designs. Looking back over the years you've designed the DKS system, the Terraplane, you have just completed a beautiful new dropout design. Is there anything that you have designed that really sticks out as your masterpiece to date?
    Thanks for the note and the kind words.

    My work over the years has taken place in 3 different areas - product, tooling and testing and I have things in each of those areas that I'm especially proud of. Most of the product and testing work has been seen by very few people but I'm no less proud of them.

    During my time at Serotta I did a massive amount of testing and had to develop my own fixtures to to that testing. I did ultimate strength and fatigue testing on everything from stems to forks to complete frames. There was one testing rig for carbon forks that I liked very much. We had concerns about the adhesives used to bond the dropouts into the fork blades when subjected to high heat like in the back of a car parked in the sun. So I made what was in effect a toaster oven that could be placed over the fork testing bed that allowed me to bring the temperature up to 150° F while doing fatigue tests. The concern was that someone would pull the bike out of the back of their black station wagon and jump on it and ride away. The testing revealed that we did indeed need to change the adhesive we used and the simple oven showed us that. It was pretty cool.

    When I started Kirk Frameworks I had very little money and did not want to barrow a dime to launch the business so I could not afford to buy a frame jig. So I worked a bit backward to solve the problem. Instead of making a jig that would hold the tubes I made an infinitely adjustable front triangle that I could set to the needed specs and then, using V blocks and C clamps, build a temporary jig around the adjustable around that front end. I would then remove the dummy triangle and put the actual tubes in place and voila! - I had a bike. I think the dummy front triangle was the most accurate thing I've ever used and it cost about $50. It was very slow to set up but I had lots of time so it worked well. I think I built the first 100ish frames on that non-jig. In the interest of speeding things up I eventually bought an Anvil but I keep the original just in case.

    I think the product I'm most proud of is the soon to be released rear dropouts - the Triple F. While working for Serotta I designed their original 3D dropout and while it worked very well it's not what I really wanted to do. I wanted to do something similar to the Triple F but we couldn't afford the tooling at the time. The 3D required the builder to miter the stays to a specific angle where it met the stay and while that works fine I wanted the stays to be able to just be square cut and then brazed/welded to the drops. The new Triple F allows for that so prep and finish time is very low. The dropouts are stupid light and strong and are designed so that a rag wrapped around your finger fits into every nook and cranny for easy cleaning. It is also a 'straight line' design - meaning that the chainstay centerline points directly at axle center. This means that, unlike a hooded Breeze style drop, the angle the chainstay leaves the BB shell is true making the socked on a lugged BB fit at they should. No more cranking it in the socket to get it all to fit. "Triple F" stands for 'form follows function' and I see the design as being as small and simple as a dropout could be - no logos or bling - no advertisements - just simple solid dropouts that will hold the wheel solidly for the next 50 years. I like them very much.

    Thanks for asking.

    dave
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com


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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Kirk View Post
    ...

    When I started Kirk Frameworks I had very little money and did not want to barrow a dime to launch the business so I could not afford to buy a frame jig. So I worked a bit backward to solve the problem. Instead of making a jig that would hold the tubes I made an infinitely adjustable front triangle that I could set to the needed specs and then, using V blocks and C clamps, build a temporary jig around the adjustable around that front end. I would then remove the dummy triangle and put the actual tubes in place and voila! - I had a bike. I think the dummy front triangle was the most accurate thing I've ever used and it cost about $50. It was very slow to set up but I had lots of time so it worked well. I think I built the first 100ish frames on that non-jig. In the interest of speeding things up I eventually bought an Anvil but I keep the original just in case.

    dave
    Hey Dave,

    Going way back in this thread for another question. I've seen quite a few pictures of the t-slot table and V blocks but none of the "infinitely adjustable front triangle". Any chance I (we) can get a look at it?

    Thanks,

    Jayme

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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayme View Post
    Hey Dave,

    Going way back in this thread for another question. I've seen quite a few pictures of the t-slot table and V blocks but none of the "infinitely adjustable front triangle". Any chance I (we) can get a look at it?

    Thanks,

    Jayme
    That is way back. I'm sure I don't have photos of that thing lying around but I could pull it out of the basement and snap a few shots if you like. let me know.

    dave
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com


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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Kirk View Post
    That is way back. I'm sure I don't have photos of that thing lying around but I could pull it out of the basement and snap a few shots if you like. let me know.

    dave
    That would be fantastic. I think it would benefit a lot of aspiring effbuilders to see how simply you can get started (minus all the years building Serottas).

    Thanks again,

    Jayme

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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Dave:

    And to the other side of Carl's question; what good ideas, or seemingly good ideas have not panned out. Have there been earlier dropout concepts that turned out to be a bust? What about early Terraplane stay bends/designs, slopers, tube shapes. Have you found that over the years, you can anticipate what will work (and not work) better? ie. is there now less time and energy wasted going through development before figuring out an effective development?

    Thanks for your (always) thoughtful writing and building.
    Tom Kellogg
    Rides bikes, used to make 'em too.
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    Shortest TFC Member (5'6 3/4") & shrinking

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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kellogg View Post
    Dave:

    And to the other side of Carl's question; what good ideas, or seemingly good ideas have not panned out. Have there been earlier dropout concepts that turned out to be a bust? What about early Terraplane stay bends/designs, slopers, tube shapes. Have you found that over the years, you can anticipate what will work (and not work) better? ie. is there now less time and energy wasted going through development before figuring out an effective development?

    Thanks for your (always) thoughtful writing and building.

    Hey Tom,

    Thanks for the questions.

    Over the years a good number designs have ended up in the recycling bin but over time I find that I spend less time going down the wrong path and end now usually end up in a good place. When designing the original Serotta DKS there were some wild ideas that went nowhere - but each of the failed ideas make the route and direction in front of you all the more clear. I find I generate a huge number of ideas and then through process of elimination get rid of all the weak ideas and hone in on the best ones. Having done this for so long now I do feel that I have a strong feeling right out of the box of what will work and what won't and that saves a huge amount of time and energy.

    The Triple F dropout is pretty much exactly what I had in my mind's eye and the hard part is translating that image into hard numbers and cutting paths. It's easy to lose the essence of the design during this translation and I work very hard to see that that doesn't happen.

    On the Terraplane the design challenge was twofold - the first was figuring out what radius and duration of bend would give the spring rate and quality that I wanted and the other was figuring out how to take a double tapered, .5 mm wall heat treated tube and bend it into the desired shape. can you say 'beer can?' The first part was pretty simple - the second, not so much.

    My design inspiration and hero is Colin Chapman of Lotus. His work has guided me and taught me that if you come to a fork in the road during the design process always take the path that is the most simple. It's easy to make something complicated and hard to make something simple. The other thing Chapman's work has taught me is that one should always design things to perform as many duties as possible. If one part can do two things you end up with a more simple and elegant solution and one that will stand the test of time. In fact when I work on a given design I will often get to the point where I think I'm done and then I walk away from it for a few days and then when I come back to it I sit down and start removing anything that doesn't need to be there. Design for me can often be a reductive process.

    Thanks again,

    Dave
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com


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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Dave,

    How has your approach to building frames changed from the Serotta days. In other words, the Serotta's were clean but devoid of a lot of craft while your bikes are about cleanliness AND craft. How has that transition felt? In a related question, how do you know when a frame is done and ready to go in a box to JB?

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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Quote Originally Posted by Curt Goodrich View Post
    Dave,

    How has your approach to building frames changed from the Serotta days. In other words, the Serotta's were clean but devoid of a lot of craft while your bikes are about cleanliness AND craft. How has that transition felt? In a related question, how do you know when a frame is done and ready to go in a box to JB?
    Yo Curt,

    Good to hear from you. Good questions both.

    I want to answer in a round-a-bout way. I studied martial arts for a good number of years when I was younger and as I got better and better at it, and attained higher rankings, I went from thinking I knew a lot to thinking that I was just starting to learn. When I got my black belt I was told that this was the beginning and that now I knew enough to learn and grow and develop my own version of the art. When I started the martial arts I thought of black belt as the end - a destination - but when I got there I realized it was really the beginning of the journey.

    Framebuilding has been similar to me. While at Serotta I designed and built thousands of bikes and because the numbers were so large they, by necessity, were less about craft and more about production. Don't get me wrong, I see nothing at all wrong with this and they were very nice bikes but the focus was on making a well built, straight bike that wouldn't have problems down the road and getting it into the UPS truck ASAP. Through my experience there I went through all the phases of thinking I was the shit and then by the end of my time there I realized that all those bikes and years were the foundation for being able to learn what I wanted to learn and build from there. I then knew enough to know what it was I didn't know, and I could set out on a quest for the answers.

    The answer for me has been a progression and still very much is. I continue to develop my hand and design skills and to give my own flavor to my work. Now that I have the bike version of the black belt around my waist I'm all the more open to learn and develop my own deal and as you so nicely noticed it involves more craft while maintaining simplicity. The pressure of time that was ever-present at Serotta has been lifted and I never feel in a hurry now and never feel rushed. I can take my time without a production manager stopping by to ask when the work would go into paint and when I could start the next one.

    This transition has, for the most part, been very good. There were moments in the first year or two of the Frameworks that I didn't know who I was and what I should be building.......... and while the bikes I built then were safe and sound some of them I wouldn't repeat just because I've learned to avoid certain things. Those moments where you feel that confusion about who you are and what the hell you should be doing were unsettling at best. But they were few and far between and almost completely behind me now. No doubt I will have that feeling again at some point but it's been a long time now since I've had it.

    How do I know when a bike is done and ready to send to JB? I have a pattern that has developed that I follow pretty tightly. When I think the bike is finished it goes on a hook and spends the night there. The next day I open the order file one more time and go through it to double check that it has what it is supposed to have. Then I pull the frameset off the hook and put it in the vice and going over it one more time. When there is nothing else that can be removed or needs to be added it's done and goes into the box. I find I need a bit of distance on the work and that is why it hangs overnight - that way the next day I see it more as it would be seen by others and I can be more objective. I need to have that feeling that "my work here is done" and then off it goes and I can empty my cup in readiness for the next one.

    Thanks,

    dave
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com


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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Thanks for your insights. Fascinating, to say the least.

    This frame: Kirk Frameworks - JK Special race bike : does it for me. One of the most beautiful, perfect bikes I've seen in a long time.

    Now, a question or two:

    1.) Who is your ideal customer?

    -and-

    2.) What is "good enough"? I think about this with respect to the typical bike I see on the road (which, on the front range, is generally quite nice). They are typically carbon Trek-Specialied-Cervelo-et al, and in the same price range as the bikes you (and others, here) produce. I ride an old Merckx Team Sc, and I don't think there is really anything "better", so I've not yet replaced/retired it. Just curious on your thoughts.

    Best regards.

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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    First off, had a very long ride on the terraplane yesterday with a running friend (on her much less colorful ti bike). Swell day. Today: it's back to heavy rain. But with the rain, I've enjoyed catching up on this discussion.

    A question (or two) on a different aspect of the business:

    1). My hunch is that you made a conscious decision to dedicate a certain amount of time to returning e-mails and phone calls. And further, unless you are a saint by nature, I suspect you made a conscious decision to be prompt and pleasant about it. Question -- how much of your day does this take, and did this just come naturally to you or do you make a special emphasis to do it this way?

    2). I suspect you have the patience of Job, but how many inquiries by phone or e-mail do you handle for every sale? I suspect every builder must feel a bit of frustration handling similar questions again and again, and I can easily imagine you could lose a half-day talking to someone who winds up not buying a bike.

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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric007 View Post
    First off, had a very long ride on the terraplane yesterday with a running friend (on her much less colorful ti bike). Swell day. Today: it's back to heavy rain. But with the rain, I've enjoyed catching up on this discussion.

    A question (or two) on a different aspect of the business:

    1). My hunch is that you made a conscious decision to dedicate a certain amount of time to returning e-mails and phone calls. And further, unless you are a saint by nature, I suspect you made a conscious decision to be prompt and pleasant about it. Question -- how much of your day does this take, and did this just come naturally to you or do you make a special emphasis to do it this way?

    2). I suspect you have the patience of Job, but how many inquiries by phone or e-mail do you handle for every sale? I suspect every builder must feel a bit of frustration handling similar questions again and again, and I can easily imagine you could lose a half-day talking to someone who winds up not buying a bike.
    Hello Sir,

    I'm glad to hear you got out on the bike yesterday. Karin and I got out for a gentle spin late yesterday and it was wonderful. Now some answers -

    1) You are right. I do make a conscious effort to return calls and emails ASAP and as corny as this might sounds I see it as just being polite. It's good business for sure but it's also good manners. I really don't know how much time I spend - I spend as much time as it takes. Mondays are the most intense days with emails piling up from the weekend and I generally spend from 8 - 10:30 AM or so catching up and then I answer calls/notes as they come in. Some builders seem to get frustrated by their customers contacting them as it ruins their flow or something. I look at it a bit differently. Without sales I would stand at my bench and have nothing to do and it's sales that put tubes into the jig and............. conversations are the precursor to sales. Plus I work alone all day everyday and the contact is refreshing and I can chat with the best of them.

    2) the number of contacts varies widely. I've had as little as 3-4 during the entire design and build process and as many as 10 times that with other people who need more guidance through the process. I do sometimes talk with someone for a very long time and then never hear from them again. The only thing I dislike about this is that it would be polite if nothing else if they called and said they were going another way. I used to get a good number of calls from people who wanted me to design something for them right there and then. I did this a few times before I figured out that they were taking my experience for free and going to someone else to have them build my design. This seems to have stopped and I'm not sure if ti's becuase I can see it coming or if I'm sending out a subliminal message or what - but it's working and I have precious few time wasters.

    Enjoy your Terraplane and send photos.

    dave
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com


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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Just suppose you were forced at gun point to make a bike for me. Would you change your address and post guards or face the music?

    Kidding.

    Thanks for your unwavering attention here. That needs to be said outloud.

    Peace, Josh

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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Tall View Post
    Just suppose you were forced at gun point to make a bike for me. Would you change your address and post guards or face the music?

    Kidding.

    Thanks for your unwavering attention here. That needs to be said outloud.

    Peace, Josh


    I don't like guns so I'd take it from you just to show I could and then with that nonsense out of the way we'd build your bike together.

    Thanks for the virtual living room where we can all put out feet up on the table. This place rocks and you made it so. Thank you.

    dave
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com


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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Quote Originally Posted by cash View Post
    Thanks for your insights. Fascinating, to say the least.

    This frame: Kirk Frameworks - JK Special race bike : does it for me. One of the most beautiful, perfect bikes I've seen in a long time.

    Now, a question or two:

    1.) Who is your ideal customer?

    -and-

    2.) What is "good enough"? I think about this with respect to the typical bike I see on the road (which, on the front range, is generally quite nice). They are typically carbon Trek-Specialied-Cervelo-et al, and in the same price range as the bikes you (and others, here) produce. I ride an old Merckx Team Sc, and I don't think there is really anything "better", so I've not yet replaced/retired it. Just curious on your thoughts.

    Best regards.

    Hey there,

    I see this is your first post - welcome. I'm glad you like that ride. JB did a stellar job putting color on that one didn't he?

    Some answers -

    1) I can think of many bad jokes with this one that would get me in trouble with Karin so I'll resist my sarcastic temptation and just answer the question. In short my ideal customer has a general idea of what they want but is, at the same time, very open minded and willing to consider change for the better and is wanting me to use my expertise to get it done..

    2) I think that any bike that makes it rider smile and leaves them wanting for nothing more is good enough. For some people this means that the $89 Sears Freespirit they ride to the store is good enough and for others it means they won't even consider a Madone but have to have a Crumpton. I think it all depends on the rider. For me, while standing at the bench, it is good enough when I can find no way to improve it. At that point it goes into a box and I take up the next challenge.

    What do you think?

    Dave
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com


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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Dave,

    Not a question but a statement: this is, by far, the most interesting thread I've read on any forum, anywhere, anytime. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience with us.

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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Quote Originally Posted by ghsmith54 View Post
    Dave,

    Not a question but a statement: this is, by far, the most interesting thread I've read on any forum, anywhere, anytime. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience with us.
    Thank you - it has been and is still my pleasure.

    dave
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com


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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Thanks for your craftsmanship and insights, Dave. Your work continues to be inspiring and your website kicks some chamois-ass!

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    Default Re: Kirk Frameworks

    Quote Originally Posted by suhacycles View Post
    Thanks for your craftsmanship and insights, Dave. Your work continues to be inspiring and your website kicks some chamois-ass!
    Thanks I think. I just googled 'chamois-ass' and came up with stuff that was not safe for children so who knows!?

    Dave
    D. Kirk
    Kirk Frameworks Co.
    www.kirkframeworks.com


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