Kirk Frameworks

[Dave Kirk]

I employed it on my last build and saw a marked difference. Thanks tons! I think I can take it further now that I'm aware.
Craig

Very good. That makes my day.

I cover the bottom of the BB with flux and after the seat tube/downtube are brazed I heat the bottom until the flux is runny clear and the metal has a slight bit of color in it. I'll bet I get the bottom hotter than I do the top.

It goes a long way to keeping things parallel.

Thanks for the report.


Dave

[Dave Kirk]

Here's a bit of a cross post link-a-mundo from the classifieds just in case people didn't see the ad there -



Your Name Here.

This might be of interest to someone here. What color would you like it to be?

Kirk Frameworks Custom Bicycles - Blog


dave

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The frame is done as of this afternoon and the fork will be all set tomorrow. First come, first served.

Dave


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[Dave Kirk]

Someone should buy this so I can stop pestering you all with photos of it.

YNH bike is done.

Kirk Frameworks Custom Bicycles - Blog

Dave

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[conorb]

Hey, only one more post at this thread matches Zanconato's in terms of number of replies.

Oh, wait.

Glad I could help out.

Conor

[WayneJ]

Dave,

No questions here - just a "Thank You"

I've read this entire thread and I'm blown away by your ability to communicate.
It's hard getting things from your head and into type in a nice logical order - and you've done it really well.
It's also likely to be the reason your frames are so well executed.

I recommend all cryptic postings are sent through you for interpretation.

-Wayne

[Dave Kirk]

Dave,

No questions here - just a "Thank You"

I've read this entire thread and I'm blown away by your ability to communicate.
It's hard getting things from your head and into type in a nice logical order - and you've done it really well.
It's also likely to be the reason your frames are so well executed.

I recommend all cryptic postings are sent through you for interpretation.

-Wayne

Yo Wayne,

Thanks for the note and for taking the time to read the thread. This is a lot of fun for me as it gives me a way to share the enthusiasm I have for so many different aspects of the business.

I think if I could I would translate some of the cryptic postings you refer to - but I don't get them either. Their is no secret handshake and I have no idea what is meant at times either! But I'm learning.

Dave

[anthonymaietta]

Dave,

I was on your site this morning reading the History section. Eventually I made my way to google patents and read #6,109,637. I had a couple questions.

Do you know this number off the top of your head? It looks like in the main claims it refers to bonding an elastomer to the seat stay for dampning. Does this patent reference anything to do with your TerraPlane stay? If so, do you have special permission from Ben to use it in your design as you were the inventor?

I have two patent pendings for my day job; I designed the darn things and I have a hard time following the verbage in the patent. Lawyers trying to out-write other lawyers at $250 an hour...

[Dave Kirk]

Dave,

I was on your site this morning reading the History section. Eventually I made my way to google patents and read #6,109,637. I had a couple questions.

Do you know this number off the top of your head? It looks like in the main claims it refers to bonding an elastomer to the seat stay for dampning. Does this patent reference anything to do with your TerraPlane stay? If so, do you have special permission from Ben to use it in your design as you were the inventor?

I have two patent pendings for my day job; I designed the darn things and I have a hard time following the verbage in the patent. Lawyers trying to out-write other lawyers at $250 an hour...

Good Morning,

Thanks for the question.

No I don't know the patent number off the top of my head. I have to look it up in my files if I need it. I'll bet my Mom remembers it though!

It is hard to tell exactly what is covered by the patent isn't it? That seems to be the idea I guess hoping that people are wowed with the confusion and obfuscation of the whole thing and then just stay away from anything to do with the idea. I doubt that tactic works though as most never bother to do patent searches anyway. As I understand it the patent deals mainly with the curved stay with a pivot at one end and with the damper to limit vibration and travel.

The Terraplane has no cross over from the patented DKS design so I didn't need any blessing to do it. I purposely stayed away from that just in case. I'd hate to develop a product and then later be told I can't sell it or that I need to pay. If I were dealing with just Ben then it would be cool but there are other suits at the company that might not be part of the understanding that Ben and I have and that is too risky for me.

I agree 100% that the lawyers are out to outdo each other. I remember dealing with my guy and asking why everything needed to be so vague and he told me that the guy with the most vague patent wins. Great system eh?

If anyone has time to burn and they want to see what a patent looks like here's a link to mine

http://www.google.com/patents?id=b30...page&q&f=false

Have fun reading and get yourself a stiff cup of joe so you stay awake.

Dave

[Dave Kirk]

After who knows how long the Triple F is now available and ready to ship. See all the details on my blog - Kirk Frameworks Custom Bicycles - Blog

Thanks for looking.

Dave

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[Jayme]

Hey Dave,

I think I heard hands smacking foreheads all around the world. So perfect, yet so simple. Congrats!

Jayme

[Dave Kirk]

Hey Dave,

I think I heard hands smacking foreheads all around the world. So perfect, yet so simple. Congrats!

Jayme

Thanks - sort of a 'I coulda had a V8" moment?

Dave

[roguedog]

Dave,

This has been an awesome read. Thank you for the education.

What are your thoughts on the whole WSD thing? Along that line of thought ... What different questions might you ask yourself or the customer when the customer is female? Or are the questions different at all since all you do is custom stuff and it's just a bunch of different contact points? What percentage of your customers are women these days?

[Dave Kirk]

Dave,

This has been an awesome read. Thank you for the education.

What are your thoughts on the whole WSD thing? Along that line of thought ... What different questions might you ask yourself or the customer when the customer is female? Or are the questions different at all since all you do is custom stuff and it's just a bunch of different contact points? What percentage of your customers are women these days?

Hey R-Dog,

Thanks for the question.

I think the Women's Specific Design thing makes good sense for the Treks of the world. They need to make bikes that fit and 'average' subset group of people and if those people share physical attributes why not give it a name and a color theme. For a made to measure builder like myself it makes little to no difference what the sex of the rider is - it only matters how they are built and how/where they ride. In other words - the person's build dictates the contact points and the way the bike is to be used dictates the geometry and sex never really factors in.

I don't have specific questions for women. I do have a lot of questions that I ask each customer though and I feel that they cover what they need to cover regardless of the rider's sex.

I'd have to go through my records to see how many customers are women but off the top of my head I'd say about 30% or so. Generally speaking I think many women have more to gain with a made to measure bike than men do. Women are often shorter and lighter than men and they can benefit from not only from proper fit, but from proper stiffness. So many women are riding bikes that fit their bodies pretty well but are made with the same tubes that would be used for a 200 lbs person. One doesn't need to be a rocket surgeon to realize that the tubes needed by a 200 lbs rider could be drastic overkill for the 120 lbs rider. I often end up using what might be called 'undersize' tuning for smaller rider's bikes (1" top tubes and 1 1/8" down tubes) to allow for the proper ride. So many production companies use the same tubes throughout the size run and even many custom builders do the same thing. This makes no sense to me at all. But it's easy and I suppose that is why it's done. I actually heard a builder once say that the tubes they used were optimized for everyone. Now that is something.

Thanks again,

Dave

[TwoCyclists]

Dave,

I have really enjoyed this thread. Have you considered building stainless steel frames? or lugs?

TC

[Dave Kirk]

Dave,

I have really enjoyed this thread. Have you considered building stainless steel frames? or lugs?

TC

Yo TC,

Welcome to the Vsalon. I'm glad you've enjoyed reading. I know I've enjoyed posting so it's a win-win deal I guess.

I've briefly considered making stainless frames but for a few reasons have not done so and doubt I ever will -

* I personally don't like any of the all stainless tubesets currently available. I use a bit of 953 (top and down tubes) in my JKS but I don't use them because they are stainless. I use them because they are the lightest and strongest top and down tubes I can get. Some of the other tubes in the 953 and XCR sets I'm much less fond of and don't feel that I can make the bike ride the way I feel they should ride if I were to use them. The ride always comes first and if it happens to look cool too that is fine. I certainly won't use tubes that give a ride I'm not proud of just to have them be shiny.

* I've done enough polishing in my life and feel no urge to do more of it. It is dirty, nasty work and covers everything in the area with a fine silt of stainless and abrasives. It also covers me with that stuff and I'm not too fond of that. Even if you wear a good mask you still end up blowing dark stuff out of your nose and life is short enough as it is. I've had a few folks say that I should send it to someone else to have the polish work done and I don't like the idea of turning someone else's lungs black either.

* I don't see how one can charge enough for their time. Time is money and it matters little how hard or easy it is to do the work but just matters how much time it takes. I don't know what kind of money guys are getting for a full polished stainless bike but if it's shy of $7000 for a frameset I'll bet they are loosing money.

* there are a few guys out there that offer stainless and do it so well that I don't feel the need to throw my hat into that ring. If I were buying stainless I'd call Dazza and be a happy man. He's the man.

* lastly - and maybe most importantly - stainless just isn't my look. I have no inherent dislike of it but when I picture the perfect bike in my mind's eye it's never stainless.



Thanks for the questions,

Dave

[kangarew99]

Dave,
I joined the forum recently, I just read this whole thread, and I have to say this thread exemplifies what I love about this space. Your comments about workflow, production management and brand integrity are fantastic. I spent 8 years at a small (75 people) apparel and softgoods factory in Seattle - including a horrific last few after the owner sold to VC guys and the whole thing fell apart. Anyway, thanks for your candor and knowledge, and willingness to share.

And the triple F dropouts are freakin' elegant.

[Dave Kirk]

Dave,
I joined the forum recently, I just read this whole thread, and I have to say this thread exemplifies what I love about this space. Your comments about workflow, production management and brand integrity are fantastic. I spent 8 years at a small (75 people) apparel and softgoods factory in Seattle - including a horrific last few after the owner sold to VC guys and the whole thing fell apart. Anyway, thanks for your candor and knowledge, and willingness to share.

And the triple F dropouts are freakin' elegant.

Thanks for chiming in.

The whole workflow, production management thing is fascinating to me. I lived it hard for a number of years and learned so much about what works and what doesn't. Now I have only myself to manage and the principles still hold and help me have good product and cash flow. As dorky as it sounds it's fun for me.

Thanks again. Hit me up with any questions you might have.

Dave

[Lionel]

I use a bit of 953 (top and down tubes) in my JKS but I don't use them because they are stainless. I use them because they are the lightest and strongest top and down tubes I can get. Some of the other tubes in the 953 and XCR sets I'm much less fond of and don't feel that I can make the bike ride the way I feel they should ride if I were to use them.

Dave, I'd be interested to hear some more specifics on what you do not like about HT, ST, CS and SS of 953 and XCr.

[Dave Kirk]

Dave, I'd be interested to hear some more specifics on what you do not like about HT, ST, CS and SS of 953 and XCr.

Yo,

Thanks for the question.

I want to use a 1 1/8" seat tube and the 953 tube has a very loose seat post fit and xcr doesn't, as I recall, come in 1 1/8". I use a True Temper S3 seat tube in my JKS and JKC and the post fits perfectly and the tube is lighter than the 953 tube.

I want to use a 22.2 round chainstay and I want it to be super beefy. Neither stainless stay comes in a shape, size and wall I like. The 953 stays are very light and way too flexi for my liking. I like a bike that jumps hard when you pounce on it and the available stays will not give that IMO. I have special stays made for me by Reynolds for the JK Series (non-stainless) that give me the combo of size and stiffness I want for my bikes.

I don't know the XCR s-stays well but the 953 s-stays are a good bit heavier than the stays I normally use. I see no reason to add weight with no ride/handling benefit.

I don't use the head tube because aside from it being stainless I can find no advantage in using it. If you want to polish stuff it's fine but otherwise there is no advantage. Both the I.D. and the O.D. on head tube are fixed so the piece of pipe weighs the same regardless of the alloy.

I think I said this in my earlier post - the fact that 953 tubes I use are stainless is not the reason I use them. I use them because they will give the ride and weight I'm looking for. I'd be perfectly happy if they weren't stainless.

Is that what you were looking for?

Dave

[Lionel]

Very clear. Thank you. As for the XCr stays they are much lighter than the 953 stays, the CS are 24mm. But I think you can only buy XCr as a set so that won't fit your needs it seems !
I am keeping an eye on that XCr for lugs that should be coming out soon. This maybe interesting.

When a new tubeset comes out do you get to experiment with it? Like building yourself a bike or you judge it on specs?