Kirk Frameworks

[WadePatton]

yeah rich, but splinters and sawdust and warpage oh my!


wrt show- i always enjoy my annual visit with DK and KK, even if the parting happens over and over.

[Dave Kirk]

Moment to moment NAHBS thoughts -

Dave

Kirk Frameworks Custom Bicycles

[roguedog]

Hey welcome back. It was way too quiet around these parts without you all.

Nice article and blog write up.

[e-RICHIE]

dave - these are awesome closing thoughts penned here atmo.

[Dave Kirk]

dave - these are awesome closing thoughts penned here atmo.

Thanks.

You know I think I'm a better builder than writer and sometimes I think maybe I should stick with what I'm good at and let others take care of the writing.

I've had a few folks ask me why I'm so down on the show and this came as a surprise to me as I didn't think I'd come off as so negative. I certainly didn't intend to give that impression. In the end I think it can be, at least for me, difficult to express the mixed feelings I have for the show. First that it absolutely rocks and that I look forward each year to doing it and at the same time that it can, at times, be disappointing. I love it and find it frustrating at the same time. Frankly if I didn't feel so strongly about it I'd write it off and stay home. But I don't, so I don't.

I feel it's important to share both the positive and negative feelings about the event. One without the other is at best dishonest and is certainly ineffective at encouraging change. Only by saying what we builders (customers) want will we possibly get what we want. To not ask is just silly and means that we will get what we deserve.

I would ask that NAHBS move back toward being more builder-centric so that it's a more effective way of using my limited funds. But asking for this does not mean that I think the show sucks. I think the show rocks and at the same time that it, like every event, has room to improve and that the only way for it to change in the direction i personally wish for to to ask.

Thanks for reading,

dave

[e-RICHIE]

Frankly if I didn't feel so strongly about it I'd write it off and stay home. But I don't, so I don't.

happycampyer said it best a few weeks ago, but said it in french atmo -
The one who loves well, punishes well.
and i would agree.
if were weren't so passionate about it, we'd have clammed up, or left, long ago.

[sevencyclist]

Thanks.

You know I think I'm a better builder than writer and sometimes I think maybe I should stick with what I'm good at and let others take care of the writing.

I've had a few folks ask me why I'm so down on the show and this came as a surprise to me as I didn't think I'd come off as so negative. I certainly didn't intend to give that impression. In the end I think it can be, at least for me, difficult to express the mixed feelings I have for the show. First that it absolutely rocks and that I look forward each year to doing it and at the same time that it can, at times, be disappointing. I love it and find it frustrating at the same time. Frankly if I didn't feel so strongly about it I'd write it off and stay home. But I don't, so I don't.

I feel it's important to share both the positive and negative feelings about the event. One without the other is at best dishonest and is certainly ineffective at encouraging change. Only by saying what we builders (customers) want will we possibly get what we want. To not ask is just silly and means that we will get what we deserve.

I would ask that NAHBS move back toward being more builder-centric so that it's a more effective way of using my limited funds. But asking for this does not mean that I think the show sucks. I think the show rocks and at the same time that it, like every event, has room to improve and that the only way for it to change in the direction i personally wish for to to ask.

Thanks for reading,

dave

Hi Dave,

Great to hear your thoughts. It also means you care about it enough to want to help the show improve, and that means a lot.

[Dave Kirk]

It's been too long since I've checked in and seeing as it's now spring I thought it was time.

With spring comes lots of snow here in Montana. We woke up to about 8" at the house this morning and it snowed much of the day. If I hadn't torn a calf muscle the other day I might have played hooky and gone up to the hill and surfed around in the 16" of fresh they got last night and today. Karin worked up there all day and will be home soon with stories about how it wasn't really all that good and how I didn't miss much. She's a good girl.

Spring also brings the bald eagles back to the area. They are everywhere in the trees and I never tire of seeing them. Sometimes when out for spring rides they will look down at you from the trees with this look in their eyes like they think you look tasty. I try to look anything but tasty and so far it's working for me.

With the show in the rear view mirror I'm back putting in long hours at the bench and my painter JB has been putting out art for me. This white w/red came back today and I really like it.

Back to the bench,

Dave

[cuda2k]

The more white Kirks I see the more I like the look. Can't quite tell if that's a pearl white or just a really shiny solid. Question (that isn't completely self-serving), what colors show off lug work the best?

Great photos of the eagles too. I recall summers in East Texas when I was growing up when we'd see a couple now and then near the water's edge. Always took their lead and started fishing in the same area.

[Dave Kirk]

The more white Kirks I see the more I like the look. Can't quite tell if that's a pearl white or just a really shiny solid. Question (that isn't completely self-serving), what colors show off lug work the best?

Great photos of the eagles too. I recall summers in East Texas when I was growing up when we'd see a couple now and then near the water's edge. Always took their lead and started fishing in the same area.

That is a very good question and I suppose the answer is 'it depends'.

I've attached seat cluster photos with different paint schemes. They all show the lugwork in different ways. In general I'd say that mid range colors (not black - not white) show the work better than the extremes but at the same time it will depend on the light source. If the bike is black and it's out in the bright sun it can show of the lugs well. Bring it indoors and you might not even notice it even has lugs.

At the same time one can show off the lugs by using contrasting or complimentary colors and/or lug lining pinstripes. You can get stuff to really pop or for it to be subtle and to draw you in.

A good painter can really get the effect he wants.

Dave

[Len J]

Dave:

First off, what a wonderful thread. I'm not surprised that you are so clear and thoughtful in your responses. You are that way verbally

Second........as a customer who still rides one of your bikes ( you may remember the Fixie with the stainless faceplates on the rear dropout, filet brazed and the candy apple red with creme and blue pinstripe.....Joe bell "puss" paint job), let me reiterate what a pleasure the whole experience was........

Finally, I've always wondered a few things......

1.) knowing you are constantly learning and growing....any thought on what you would have done different on my bike?

2.) recognizing that the paint job is the thing a buyer has the most control over, and many seem to want to overdo it, do you ever veto a paint job?, how often do you get the bike back and...........have a less than positive reaction?

Thanks for the great thread.

Len

[Dave Kirk]

Dave:

First off, what a wonderful thread. I'm not surprised that you are so clear and thoughtful in your responses. You are that way verbally

Second........as a customer who still rides one of your bikes ( you may remember the Fixie with the stainless faceplates on the rear dropout, filet brazed and the candy apple red with creme and blue pinstripe.....Joe bell "puss" paint job), let me reiterate what a pleasure the whole experience was........

Finally, I've always wondered a few things......

1.) knowing you are constantly learning and growing....any thought on what you would have done different on my bike?

2.) recognizing that the paint job is the thing a buyer has the most control over, and many seem to want to overdo it, do you ever veto a paint job?, how often do you get the bike back and...........have a less than positive reaction?

Thanks for the great thread.

Len

Hey Len,

Very good to hear from you - thanks for chiming in.

To answer your questions -

1) You are correct - I do feel like I am constantly learning and growing. At this point in my learning curve this learning effects the process more than it does the end results. By that I mean that I keep learning and teaching myself new tricks that make everything from customer interaction to the build itself easier/quicker/more precise/more fun............. etc. The end product changes little - it's more the path I take to get there. So in the case of your bike I would have used my new bending techniques to bend the Terraplane stays and some new finishing tricks I've taught myself to get the fillets just so. I can think of no changes i would make in what you ended up with.

2) Again you are correct - my customers can have almost any paint scheme they might want. In a very limited number of cases JB and I both do our level best to talk the folks off the ledge and steer them toward a paint scheme that they will still love years from now. I know some will say that I should more tightly control the paint jobs so that we don't get any unusual paint jobs out there and I understand their point but when push comes to shove I don't want to be the 'Paint Nazi" (think soup nazi) and tell the owner that they can't have what they truly want. Does this chase some potential customer away? I suppose it might. But I still end up with plenty of work so I feel no need to disappoint customers by telling them that they can only have paint schemes that I personally like. If a potential customer is chased away because they saw a Kirk out there that had paint they didn't like then I doubt they really wanted my work that badly anyway. JB and I will guide and hand hold as best we can and this results in 99% of the paint jobs being something I'm excited to show and 1% giving me that feeling of "really - that is what you want?" I can tell you that the very small number of bikes I'm not so excited about are loved by their owners. Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder in my opinion. The interesting thing is that in most cases the customer has ideas of what they want and they ask that JB and I give them honest feedback because the customer wants JB and I to like it as much as they do. It feels good knowing that they want us to like it as much as they do.

I also like that the customers that seem to love their paint the most are the ones that tell us the basic things - like what colors they like/dislike and what types of schemes they like/dislike (panels/fades/pinstripes...etc.) and then set us free to do what we think is best and surprise them. I end up with a lot of very happy customers this way.



Thanks for the questions and for reading the thread. This smoked out deal is still one the the best things going.

Keep enjoying that pretty bike of yours.


Dave

[Len J]

Thanks Dave...appreciate it.

len

[timdude]

Mr. Kirk can you explain the lining of the lugs of the green and gold bike you posted on FNL #107. It looks like a paint pen because they are so thin. I'm a hobby builder and my friend is going to shoot my frame in a House of Color candy red over a silver base, with black linings. He has paint for pen stripping, but were not sure if linings are masked, free hand with a quill, or a paint pen of some sort.

Thanks
Tim

[Dave Kirk]

Hey Tim Dude,

Thank you for the question.

I of course am not the guy that does that fine work. I wish I had that skill but that is the work of Joe Bell. It is so even and perfect that it seems like it must be some kind of paint pen but JB tells me it's not. He tells me it's a special pin striping brush/tool. He tells me that the tool doesn't make it easy but instead makes it doable. I'm wowed every time I get a frameset back and go over it. The stripes are just too even and perfect to be made by hand - yet they are.

Here are a few more examples of JB's work. Thanks again,

dave

[geoffk]

And here is a shot of the gold pinstripes* in action yesterday. (It's nice when you can drop someone on the last climb, even nicer when he compliments the beauty of your frameset twice beforehand.)

GKonDKatRoubaix.JPG

*Unless I am mistaken. Sure looks like my frame (040709), though there may be another like it.

[Jayme]

...

When I started Kirk Frameworks I had very little money and did not want to barrow a dime to launch the business so I could not afford to buy a frame jig. So I worked a bit backward to solve the problem. Instead of making a jig that would hold the tubes I made an infinitely adjustable front triangle that I could set to the needed specs and then, using V blocks and C clamps, build a temporary jig around the adjustable around that front end. I would then remove the dummy triangle and put the actual tubes in place and voila! - I had a bike. I think the dummy front triangle was the most accurate thing I've ever used and it cost about $50. It was very slow to set up but I had lots of time so it worked well. I think I built the first 100ish frames on that non-jig. In the interest of speeding things up I eventually bought an Anvil but I keep the original just in case.

dave

Hey Dave,

Going way back in this thread for another question. I've seen quite a few pictures of the t-slot table and V blocks but none of the "infinitely adjustable front triangle". Any chance I (we) can get a look at it?

Thanks,

Jayme

[Dave Kirk]

And here is a shot of the gold pinstripes* in action yesterday. (It's nice when you can drop someone on the last climb, even nicer when he compliments the beauty of your frameset twice beforehand.)

GKonDKatRoubaix.JPG

*Unless I am mistaken. Sure looks like my frame (040709), though there may be another like it.

How cool is that? I think that is indeed the same bike. What event did you do?

Dave

[Dave Kirk]

Hey Dave,

Going way back in this thread for another question. I've seen quite a few pictures of the t-slot table and V blocks but none of the "infinitely adjustable front triangle". Any chance I (we) can get a look at it?

Thanks,

Jayme

That is way back. I'm sure I don't have photos of that thing lying around but I could pull it out of the basement and snap a few shots if you like. let me know.

dave

[Jayme]

That is way back. I'm sure I don't have photos of that thing lying around but I could pull it out of the basement and snap a few shots if you like. let me know.

dave

That would be fantastic. I think it would benefit a lot of aspiring effbuilders to see how simply you can get started (minus all the years building Serottas).

Thanks again,

Jayme