Kirk Frameworks

[suhacycles]

Hey Hansen,

Thanks for writing.

The orange bike uses normal OS tubes (1 1/8" top and 1 1/4" down tubes) but the Big Blue Bike (BBB) uses the XL stuff.

Yes it's perfectly acceptable to use a top tube as a seat tube assuming the butt lengths work out properly for both good solid clamping of the seat post and a long enough butt at the BB end. The seat tube in the BBB is 953 and is most often used as a downtube. It has long butts so both ends work out well and it's silly thin in the middle to keep the weight in check. It works very well.

One could use a heavier wall and end up with a more common post size but the tubes are more than strong enough even with the very thin walls so I'm opting to cut down the weight.

What do you think?

Dave

Sounds good to me! I guess in the end since there's no way to use a 27.2 post in a 31.7 ST without either a shim or a pressed in collar using a 30.0 or a 30.6 post really isn't much difference.
I'm contemplating using a 31.7 ST for my next project but being that it would be 54cm I think I would end up with no more than 80mm for the butt length at the BB and 50-60 mm at the seat lug end. Is that sufficient assuming use of a clamp on front derailleur?

Thanks,
Hansen

[Dave Kirk]

Humm. My current supplier for that diameter is WR Compositi. But Edge would be good ;)

Both good options but not the direction I am going.

Dave

[Dave Kirk]

Sounds good to me! I guess in the end since there's no way to use a 27.2 post in a 31.7 ST without either a shim or a pressed in collar using a 30.0 or a 30.6 post really isn't much difference.
I'm contemplating using a 31.7 ST for my next project but being that it would be 54cm I think I would end up with no more than 80mm for the butt length at the BB and 50-60 mm at the seat lug end. Is that sufficient assuming use of a clamp on front derailleur?

Thanks,
Hansen

I think the seat tube's robustness under the FD clamp will depend greatly on the wall thickness of the tube and it's alloy. If the tube is very hard (953, XCR) then even with the clamp on the thin section of tube I doubt you would have any issue. Use a softer alloy and get heavy handed with the clamp and I suppose you could have an issue.

Dave

[Lionel]

Both good options but not the direction I am going.

Dave

Man of mystery... What's the ETA for it and will there be several setback options?

[roguedog]

Ok.. call me a dork. I just re-read this thread again. What struck me this time around was how much thought, science/math and good old fashioned testing you put into your designs. That's very cool. And now I see how it emphasizes your design philosophy that nothing is there without a reason. ( i'm kinda slow)

While reading, I wondered if frame builders can look at a bike and get a pretty good sense of how that'd bike would ride and handle?

I actually just came to tell you that I love that green bike from FNL and got sucked in. Kinda sad I guess but makes nice morning coffee and sunrise reading. I look forward to more of your well expressed and reasoned posts and surprises :) Thanks. Now off to work work.. boo

[suhacycles]

I think the seat tube's robustness under the FD clamp will depend greatly on the wall thickness of the tube and it's alloy. If the tube is very hard (953, XCR) then even with the clamp on the thin section of tube I doubt you would have any issue. Use a softer alloy and get heavy handed with the clamp and I suppose you could have an issue.

Dave

Hmm... sounds like 0.5 mm of Zona wouldn't have as nice a margin of safety so perhaps I need to rethink...

Grazie,
Hansen

[Dave Kirk]

Ok.. call me a dork. I just re-read this thread again. What struck me this time around was how much thought, science/math and good old fashioned testing you put into your designs. That's very cool. And now I see how it emphasizes your design philosophy that nothing is there without a reason. ( i'm kinda slow)

While reading, I wondered if frame builders can look at a bike and get a pretty good sense of how that'd bike would ride and handle?

I actually just came to tell you that I love that green bike from FNL and got sucked in. Kinda sad I guess but makes nice morning coffee and sunrise reading. I look forward to more of your well expressed and reasoned posts and surprises :) Thanks. Now off to work work.. boo

Hey Mr. Rogue,

First let me just say this - you are a dork.......... and welcome to dork club. You are in good company.

Thanks for the note. You made my day with this. You know - I realize pragmatism is not the best way to sell stuff but pragmatic is what I am and it comes out in my work and to try to pretend otherwise will in the end be a disservice to both my clients and me. I fully grasp that if somehow I could change my stripes and be more 'cool' that my work might attract those that want the coolest and I might sell more bikes. But that would be like asking me to be taller - ain't gonna happen. Instead I'm pleased that there seem to be enough folks out there that appreciate what I do, how I do it, and why I do it a given way that I don't need to try to be someone else. FWIW it only took me 45 years to figure that out. I'm kinda slow too.

I think you are right - I think that one can tell a lot about how a bike will feel and behave by looking at it and it's spec sheet. I would be foolish to imply that I can tell subtle things that can make or break the way a bike feels by the specs but one can certainly get a general impression without ever throwing a leg over it. But, in the end, nothing speaks as loud as experience and it's impossible to tell what a given bike will REALLY feel like without riding it. For this reason I always got a kick out of folks telling me that my designs will, or more often won't, work based on the fact that they saw a photo of one on the web. This is especially true with my Serotta DKS design and the current Terraplane. It doesn't happen much any more but for awhile there is was an everyday deal. I think they got bored of me :) Luckily the customers haven't and are enjoying their bikes.

Thanks again - I need to get back to the bench.

Dave

[Dave Thompson]

Hey Mr. Rogue,

First let me just say this - you are a dork.......... and welcome to dork club. You are in good company.

Thanks for the note. You made my day with this. You know - I realize pragmatism is not the best way to sell stuff but pragmatic is what I am and it comes out in my work and to try to pretend otherwise will in the end be a disservice to both my clients and me. I fully grasp that if somehow I could change my stripes and be more 'cool' that my work might attract those that want the coolest and I might sell more bikes. But that would be like asking me to be taller - ain't gonna happen. Instead I'm pleased that there seem to be enough folks out there that appreciate what I do, how I do it, and why I do it a given way that I don't need to try to be someone else. FWIW it only took me 45 years to figure that out. I'm kinda slow too.

I think you are right - I think that one can tell a lot about how a bike will feel and behave by looking at it and it's spec sheet. I would be foolish to imply that I can tell subtle things that can make or break the way a bike feels by the specs but one can certainly get a general impression without ever throwing a leg over it. But, in the end, nothing speaks as loud as experience and it's impossible to tell what a given bike will REALLY feel like without riding it. For this reason I always got a kick out of folks telling me that my designs will, or more often won't, work based on the fact that they saw a photo of one on the web. This is especially true with my Serotta DKS design and the current Terraplane. It doesn't happen much any more but for awhile there is was an everyday deal. I think they got bored of me :) Luckily the customers haven't and are enjoying their bikes.

Thanks again - I need to get back to the bench.

Dave

Dave, pragmatic you may be but cool you really are! What comes out of your garage is 11 on the cool scale. The Terraplane was/is cool and because of a pic on the web, I just knew it would work. It did!

[Dave Kirk]

Dave, pragmatic you may be but cool you really are! What comes out of your garage is 11 on the cool scale. The Terraplane was/is cool and because of a pic on the web, I just knew it would work. It did!

Hello David - great to hear from you and thanks for the kind words.

For those of you that don't know Dave Thompson was Kirk Frameworks customer #1 and I have to say you never forget your first time. Thanks for being there from the beginning David. You'll always be the first and that's perfect by me.

Any chance we'll see you in Texas? It would be good to catch up and get you a fresh T shirt.

Dave

[Dazza]

Sounds good to me! I guess in the end since there's no way to use a 27.2 post in a 31.7 ST without either a shim or a pressed in collar using a 30.0 or a 30.6 post really isn't much difference.
I'm contemplating using a 31.7 ST for my next project but being that it would be 54cm I think I would end up with no more than 80mm for the butt length at the BB and 50-60 mm at the seat lug end. Is that sufficient assuming use of a clamp on front derailleur?

Thanks,
Hansen

Life 31.7 seat tube part # SFLM13635 is .8/5 with 150mm of .8 so a braze on or clamp will be sweet
Clamps work fine on .5
Note: I have had some Life seat tubes come in with only 100mm of butt so best check them before use.
I thrashed this all out in 2004 when designing this lug set and the 30.6 post was the best out come.

I will add
it is cool that Dave is working on another US made 30.6 post.
Seeing Dave Kirk's version of my XL tube lug set is super cool
nice Davissimo elements

We live in happy times.

[Dave Kirk]

.......................

I will add
it is cool that Dave is working on another US made 30.6 post.
Seeing Dave Kirk's version of my XL tube lug set is super cool
nice Davissimo elements

We live in happy times.

Yes - I am working with one of the best carbon houses in the US on the post and we'll see where is goes.

I agree - we live in good times for the handbuilt bike.

Dave

[lavi]

Is Carl Strong getting into the bicycle component biz?

[Dave Kirk]

That would be cool but I think Carl's plate is more than full.

Dave

[roguedog]

Hey Mr. Rogue,

First let me just say this - you are a dork.......... and welcome to dork club. You are in good company.

Thanks for the note. You made my day with this. You know - I realize pragmatism is not the best way to sell stuff but pragmatic is what I am and it comes out in my work and to try to pretend otherwise will in the end be a disservice to both my clients and me. I fully grasp that if somehow I could change my stripes and be more 'cool' that my work might attract those that want the coolest and I might sell more bikes. But that would be like asking me to be taller - ain't gonna happen. Instead I'm pleased that there seem to be enough folks out there that appreciate what I do, how I do it, and why I do it a given way that I don't need to try to be someone else. FWIW it only took me 45 years to figure that out. I'm kinda slow too.

I think you are right - I think that one can tell a lot about how a bike will feel and behave by looking at it and it's spec sheet. I would be foolish to imply that I can tell subtle things that can make or break the way a bike feels by the specs but one can certainly get a general impression without ever throwing a leg over it. But, in the end, nothing speaks as loud as experience and it's impossible to tell what a given bike will REALLY feel like without riding it. For this reason I always got a kick out of folks telling me that my designs will, or more often won't, work based on the fact that they saw a photo of one on the web. This is especially true with my Serotta DKS design and the current Terraplane. It doesn't happen much any more but for awhile there is was an everyday deal. I think they got bored of me :) Luckily the customers haven't and are enjoying their bikes.

Thanks again - I need to get back to the bench.

Dave

Glad I made your day. I had a small twinge later that I might have actually offended you. I love show too but in the end it's about how the bikes rides and how it works with you as the rider. Kinda like golf.. drive for show but putt for dough. :D I learned that on the last bike I got. Wasn't too hot on the paint job but I got it, put it together. And man, did my eyes get opened. I love that bike and I love how it looks now too. I'm now kinda addicted..

Anyway, keep warm up there in MT.

PS. Dazza's lugs rock on that blue bike. Actually Dazza's lugs just friggin rock... speaking of addiction.

[Dave Kirk]

Glad I made your day. I had a small twinge later that I might have actually offended you. I love show too but in the end it's about how the bikes rides and how it works with you as the rider. Kinda like golf.. drive for show but putt for dough. :D I learned that on the last bike I got. Wasn't too hot on the paint job but I got it, put it together. And man, did my eyes get opened. I love that bike and I love how it looks now too. I'm now kinda addicted..

Anyway, keep warm up there in MT.

PS. Dazza's lugs rock on that blue bike. Actually Dazza's lugs just friggin rock... speaking of addiction.

No offense taken - so no worries. I think you and I are on the same page.

Thanks again,

dave

[Dave Kirk]

Just a quick note to out my interview with Bike Rumor posted today. As you may know many have taken part and yesterday it was my turn. Be sure to check out the site and the other interviews - some good reading there.

Kirk Bike Rumor


Dave

[Dave Kirk]

It's about time to travel if for no other reason than most all the boxes are checked. For those of you that will be in Austin - we look forward to seeing you. For those who can't make it we hope you can next time.

Our forecast for Bozeman shows heavy snow and a high of 5° tomorrow so we are leaving at the right time for some sun and warmth. The forecast calls for near 80° in Texas over the weekend. Karin asked a good and silly question when we saw the weather - "what the hell will we wear?". We are going to have to dig out some light shirts and put away the wool. Sounds like a hardship we can endure.

Safe travels to all,

Dave

[Dave Kirk]

Just a quick note of thanks for the warm welcome given to Karin and me. It was good to put faces to the screen names and have real life conversations with so many Salon folk. So thanks again.

Don't be a stranger.

Dave

[jamesand]

Dave, tell us how many compliments you received on the shipping box. Don't be shy.

[Dave Kirk]

Dave, tell us how many compliments you received on the shipping box. Don't be shy.

Plenty thank you. I had customers looking at my bikes and builders taking photos of the crate.

The best by far was from an old hardened looking guy who worked for the decorator. It was tear down time on Sunday and he went by while pulling down curtain and rod and stopped and stared at me. It seemed odd so I asked if I was in the way or something. He replied with "your crate may be the best I've ever seen". I responded with something like "and I image you might have seen a few". He smiled and said "yep....... just a few few".

A few minutes later he passed by again and I think was feeling a bit more comfortable and with a big sly smile said with a heavy spanish accent "you should forget about these stupid bikes and start making crates - you'd be a millionaire!". He may have been the smartest one in the room.

Dave