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    Default Cycles Noir

    At about the age of 7, I rode my first bike. It was my sisters Schwinn, and because of its ‘girls’ frame, I could straddle it while standing and peddling. By the age of 9 I had my own full size Schwinn, a Typhoon in red. For me the bike was my car – offering a measure of freedom.

    Naturally my bike provided a quick means of visiting friends, running errands, or getting to school. For 8-9 months of the year, it also provided me with an escape from home life. As an escape, I was in no hurry to return. Because I rarely had a destination, that meant riding farther and farther.

    By then, I met a new friend, someone with older brothers. The oldest of them were attending the U (University of Minnesota), conferring on them a major coolness factor. Naturally my buddy liked to ride, but when his brothers discovered fine European bikes, our interest in bikes and riding grew exponentially.

    John worked and saved his money for a used, basic, Gitane. My father didn’t believe in all that flimsy junk from overseas, nor in the uncomfortable skinny saddles or downturned handlebars. So my savings were directed into a Schwinn w/ a five-speed Huret Allvit setup. Sprung vinyl seat, chromed upright bars, heavy steel frame and wheels. It wasn’t sexy, but I had gears and could cover more ground.

    A few years later, I entered High-School (outside of Chicago). By then, the seeds of the bike boom were planted, and my savings were focused on a Peugeot PX-10. My father drove me the hour-and-half down to Chicago and a real bike shop. My first reaction on seeing the bike, with its flat tubulars, was that something must be wrong. Naturally, my father remarked about the tires and everything else about this crazy, expensive, bike. All of which convinced me that the PX-10 was perfect.

    I had a lot to learn about bike maintenance and repair. Like the time I rolled a front tire and ended up on my back, still clipped to the pedals w/ hands on the brake hoods, with the bike pointing up into the air. There weren’t any shops closer than 30 minutes away (by car) from our house. And even these didn’t cater to higher-end equipment. There was, however, a shop in Minneapolis with a mail-order catalog – I don’t remember the name - which carried everything I needed and wanted. Most of the catalog seemed to be illustrated by D. Rebour, and I studied it cover to cover for every clue I could find – as I steadily developed my mechanical skills.

    More importantly I rode. Compared to the Schwinn, this bike felt like it floating on clouds. Just coasting was a magical experience. The fit, however, never felt right to me. So in college, I sold it and bought a Bob Jackson – mustard yellow with a black head-tube and seat panel – that I used to explore the countryside.

    About then, I ran across the Proteus Framebuilding Handbook at the Student Bookstore. Looking at the book now, explains the process of how to build a frame. But at the time, it struck me as sketchy and seemed to gloss over important details of brazing.
    In fact, I made the wise choice not to build a frame with only the Handbook as my guide. But the desire to build a frames was lit and would continue burning for many years to come.

    I believe that some folks are more creative than others. Not that they are better, or more clever, rather some folks have more of a need to create. And this need can be addressed in many ways – not necessarily by what we normally would consider arts or crafts. I am someone who needs a creative outlet. Part of what I enjoy is problem solving. I also have a clearly logical side to my thinking, which questions much and demands good answers (at least according to my terms).

    Some years ago, after surviving more than 15 M&As (the count was lost somewhere after that), I was downsized during an acquisition. This was near the beginning of the Internet economic slump, and for the IT industry, this was exacerbated by the completion of Y2K projects. For two years I had good success in the recruiting process, without making it past the brides-maid stage. At about the same time, I turned 50. This seems to be a combination of magic numbers – because suddenly phone calls were no longer returned by headhunters and hiring organizations.

    So, with family obligation, I turned to other employment which paid bills – even if it didn’t satisfy my creativity and problem solving Jones.

    Magically, in this period, I stumbled across some evolving resources where frame-builders – really big name people – were beginning to use the Internet to share knowledge of the process of frame-building. There were a number of antecedents to this, including the publishing of several books more comprehensive than Proteus, and certain frame-builders offering courses for hire on how to build a frame. Today we see the results of this mass of interest and knowledge-sharing which has reached a sustainable boil.

    I’ve been learning to build bikes now for about 6-7 years - yet I’m probably the world’s slowest builder. I’m different from many because I build using either steel, or carbon fiber. The learning processes for each material is probably more different than the respective construction processes. Some of my builds are for commission, some are for experience. I don’t market (unless you count a primative website), focusing my efforts within my local community. My shop isn’t weatherized, limiting me to about six months of building a year; it’s a small shop, about 9 x 11. To get work done, I move my wife’s car out of the garage, and spread things out until it’s time to shut down for the night.

    I’ve focused on road bikes, ranging from rando to racing. This summer calls for building a couple of cross bikes – and we’ll see how that goes. My first love is the steel frame – and where I started my building odyssey. But, carbon fiber is very popular. People came to me asking me to build with it – so that has been a medium into which I naturally expanded.

    The aesthetics of steel and carbon fiber are obviously different. Apart from some logos, and my ideas of frame design, there isn’t much that ties my steel and carbon frames together. On the other hand, I’m still trying to figure out what are/will be my signature licks on a frame. So maybe I’ll find something to unify the two materials yet.

    For steel, there have been many sources within the community to guide my methods and materials, which has been great! We stand on the shoulders of giants. Carbon fiber, however, has been a bit different. I haven’t room (nor electrical circuits) for an oven to cure pre-preg materials. That’s a shame because I think they are easier to handle than wet layups, and this has put me outside the mainstream of carbon-fiber frame building. Consequently, I’ve relied on sources outside of frame-building.

    Most dry uni-direction fabrics aren’t suitable for the complex shapes of a bicycle frame. They don’t happily drape or conform to the required shapes. On the other hand, woven fabrics lose some of their strength because the threads bend as they cross each other. Through luck, I have found sources for rare fabrics that address these issues. These fabrics are made of layers (from 2 to 9) of uni-directional fibers, woven together loosely with stretchy threads, so that the fabric drapes easily and keeps the layers properly oriented to each other, while building up the joint. Cool stuff, and I hope I can continue to source these materials until such time as I move to pre-preg.

    For all that has been cool about working with carbon fiber, the process leaves doesn’t give me the tactile impressions of working a tool against steel.

    Note: I have a drill press, but no other machine tools. This isn’t a metaphysically defined setup – I just don’t have the space or money to play with machine tools. So I push a file, saw, or sandpaper against steel tube and fittings by hand. And I find that this gives a greater feeling of creating something (at least for me), than does working with carbon fiber.

    Don’t get me wrong, both methods build a great bicycle. And either bike can be beautiful. But there is something more intimate for me about building with steel than with carbon fiber.

    Where am I now? Well I’ve built around 30 bikes. I’ve been insured since the beginning. I’ve cut up lots of bikes, and thrown out my share of partially completed frames and/or forks. But my finished bikes seem to work well for their riders. My build times are improving and the mechanical processes are becoming more rote. More importantly, I enjoy what I’m doing. So I’ll keep at it, and one of these days show up at NAHBS.

    Before ending, a few props are necessary:
    1 Painting is hard, but done well it can make almost anything look good. Thank you to all the painters out there.
    2 Thanks to the community of builders and their willingness to share.
    3 A big shout out to e-Ritchie, who has done so much to keep this community thriving over the years.
    4 Thank you Too Tall and the V-Salon for the opportunity to share my story.
    To old to know better

    www.cyclesnoir.com

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    Hey Rick,

    Nice to see you up and about. I think I remember some of our early (2001/2002) internet conversations back in the day.

    I realized you gravitated to carbon as another material from steel and it sounds as though you use it slightly differently without having the room for an oven/cure system. Could you elaborate more on that? Is necessity the mother of invention on this? From your initial description it sounds as though you're doing a full monocoque layup, is that true?

    Are you doing any mixed steel/carbon bikes? Not just carbon forks, but I mean carbon rear ends. If so, how do those ride compared to their full steel or full carbon counterparts?

    Do you find both materials have their place and intended usage? I mean if you had to choose only one would you stay with steel or go for the future of carbon?

    Conor

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    Rick, it sounds like your clients find you by word of mouth and reputation. I like that, it means your clients are self selecting and will tend to be a better match to your personality and abilities. Is that right or am I off the mark? Building bicycles is a VERY personal service of which I know a thing or two (chuckle). How strongly do you feel about making some sort of a personal connection with clients or is that not on the agenda?

    HEY THANKS for your tremendous backstory and good words.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Tall View Post
    Rick, it sounds like your clients find you by word of mouth and reputation. I like that, it means your clients are self selecting and will tend to be a better match to your personality and abilities. Is that right or am I off the mark? Building bicycles is a VERY personal service of which I know a thing or two (chuckle). How strongly do you feel about making some sort of a personal connection with clients or is that not on the agenda?

    HEY THANKS for your tremendous backstory and good words.
    Yeah, you bring up a few points that I haven't addressed.

    I could build bikes without ever having a rider (other than me) and derive a certain amount of satisfaction. But that clearly isn't the whole cycle. Its tremendously rewarding when someone first looks at their new bike and clearly are in love with it. Its even better when they've ridden it for a while, and come back with stories of how much they enjoy it. And I love when I'm close enough to observe one of my riders telling someone else about all the wonderful things about their bike and how much they enjoy it. So that all very very cool from where I sit.

    To date, my riders have not been demanding in terms of trying to tell me how to design their bike - guess I'm lucky there. Some have come to me with good and well established fits - which makes that side of things easy. Others appear to be in need of some adjustments. For them, I prefer to try to tweak their current bike first, get them close to where I think they belong, and get their concurrence on the changes before committing them to steel of CF. This process has worked pretty well for me.

    I've only had one rider that I gave up on. Changing demands and impatience made it better to refund the deposit and send him along to someone else than to try to meet his needs.

    So far, no one has asked me to build something outside of my comfort zone. If they did, I would have no problem pointing them toward someone better equipped to meet their needs.

    Clearly you are on point about the self-selecting clientele. Also, re the personal connection. Without the connection, its not really possible to have the dialog about adjusting fit, or what I will or won't build, or even to say lets break up but stay friends. But I've been lucky that in most cases, the personal connection was established before the issue of building came up. Going forward, this will probably be a CSF to grown the business.

    One last thing, I've probably read just about everything you've written here. What always shines through is your enthusiasm - bet you make a great coach and riding buddy.

    Thanks for you input and support.

    Rick
    To old to know better

    www.cyclesnoir.com

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    non tech question, How did you name your company? I like and agree wtih your comments about weight. Some folks will never be convinced.

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    Wade,

    Ever since my PX-10, I've been aware of and impressed by the French influence in bike design/construction. Here in the states, its taken a back seat over most of my life to Italian and British influences, IMO. So the contrarian in me was attracted to the French image. When I decided to add CF to my efforts, it seemed appropriate for the name to reflect black fiber, hence the Noir.

    I should point out that nothing about my bikes to date, apart from design of Rando style frames, show much French influence - so I suppose that its all a bit tongue in cheek. But when the idea of Cycles Noir came to me, I liked and stuck with it.

    Rick
    To old to know better

    www.cyclesnoir.com

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    Quote Originally Posted by vulture View Post
    I like and agree wtih your comments about weight. Some folks will never be convinced.
    I saw a guy on a group ride last night riding a Trek that's 6 or 8cm too small because it's .xx lbs lighter than his old steel custom that fit him like a glove. 3 in of spacers under the stem and a foot of seatpost sticking out. I wanted to cry.
    Eric Doswell, aka Edoz
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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    Quote Originally Posted by conorb View Post
    Hey Rick,

    I realized you gravitated to carbon as another material from steel and it sounds as though you use it slightly differently without having the room for an oven/cure system. Could you elaborate more on that? Is necessity the mother of invention on this? From your initial description it sounds as though you're doing a full monocoque layup, is that true?

    Are you doing any mixed steel/carbon bikes? Not just carbon forks, but I mean carbon rear ends. If so, how do those ride compared to their full steel or full carbon counterparts?

    Do you find both materials have their place and intended usage? I mean if you had to choose only one would you stay with steel or go for the future of carbon?

    Conor
    Hey Conor!

    Good questions.

    I started with Deda's DCS, but found it to be too kit-like and not enough flexibility for true custom. Also, some builders were having reliability issues with it - and I didn't want to go down that path. So I started sourcing tubing, first from Mclean, then Edge and Deda, and using CF to bond the joints.

    In my experience, it is harder to make aesthetically good joints than to make structurally good joints. Vacuum bags work, but it can be hard to hold wet layers in place while getting the wrinkles out. So, depending on the joint, I may some a combination of shrink tubing, wrapped tape, and vacuum bags to get the necessary compression.

    My building sequence is:
    1 glue and partially wrap the BB to the chainstays.
    2 glue up the keel and work the BB joint. I don't wrap the BB as a single operation.
    3 glue in the top tube and wrap the head tube joints
    4 glue in the seat stays and wrap their joint to the seat tube.

    I don't really like to install internal cable runs, but have figured out some ways to make these work. For example, its possible to give the downtube a more parabolic entry profile - which is actually helpful from an aero perspective. For this I bond balsa strips to the tube, which I sand to shape, and lay a light CF layer on top. Before the CF layer, its possible to groove these strips and glue in cable guides - which are external to the structural tube, but for all practical purposes are internal. This is an example of necessity being the mother of invention - so yes to that question.

    I haven't mixed my steel and CF to date - and can't comment on the ride characteristics. I've thought about it, and its very doable - certainly others have made this work. It isn't clear to me, however, what the benefits are. Not saying that there are no bene's, they just haven't been obvious enough to me for me to feel compelled to make the experiment.

    Yeah, both materials have their place. CF can be incredibly durable. Steel can be a bit fragile. All steel failures are not graceful. All CF failures are not catastrophic. Epoxy doesn't melt from sitting in the sun. Well cared for, steel doesn't easily rust.

    I don't generally push weight limits. If I did, my first choice would be to do it with steel - even though that would make for a heavier frame - I'm just a bit more comfortable with steel at its limits. More importantly, its possible to hit minimum racing weights with either material - buy choosing the right kit. Consequently, I don't think folks should get too hung up on frame weight - and I don't commit to weights up front, nor report them at completion of the frame.

    Call me a contrarian, or an independent thinker, or just crusty, but I don't think there are substantial differences in how a frame feels based on its material. I think tires, and to some degree wheels, control the ride qualities. Frame design controls the handling. At the end of rides, we'll be sitting outside the coffee shop and someone always starts the debate on material qualities. I've learned to just sit and smile as various views are aired, usually just has they have been written in one of the various mags. All I know is that my two primary bikes are split - one steel and one carbon. And I can't ascribe a certain ride quality or feel to either that relates to its material.

    If I had to go with one material, it would be steel. Both for the tactile qualities during building, and an old school aesthetic. But that doesn't mean I don't like carbon fiber, and I would prefer to be able to continue to work with both.

    BTW, there wasn't room in the original post to point out that given the bully pulpit, I tend to get a bit windy. ;)

    Cheers & I love your work!

    Rick
    To old to know better

    www.cyclesnoir.com

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    Quote Originally Posted by CyclesNoir View Post
    Hey Conor!

    Good questions.

    I started with Deda's DCS, but found it to be too kit-like and not enough flexibility for true custom. Also, some builders were having reliability issues with it - and I didn't want to go down that path. So I started sourcing tubing, first from Mclean, then Edge and Deda, and using CF to bond the joints.

    In my experience, it is harder to make aesthetically good joints than to make structurally good joints. Vacuum bags work, but it can be hard to hold wet layers in place while getting the wrinkles out. So, depending on the joint, I may some a combination of shrink tubing, wrapped tape, and vacuum bags to get the necessary compression.

    My building sequence is:
    1 glue and partially wrap the BB to the chainstays.
    2 glue up the keel and work the BB joint. I don't wrap the BB as a single operation.
    3 glue in the top tube and wrap the head tube joints
    4 glue in the seat stays and wrap their joint to the seat tube.

    I don't really like to install internal cable runs, but have figured out some ways to make these work. For example, its possible to give the downtube a more parabolic entry profile - which is actually helpful from an aero perspective. For this I bond balsa strips to the tube, which I sand to shape, and lay a light CF layer on top. Before the CF layer, its possible to groove these strips and glue in cable guides - which are external to the structural tube, but for all practical purposes are internal. This is an example of necessity being the mother of invention - so yes to that question.

    I haven't mixed my steel and CF to date - and can't comment on the ride characteristics. I've thought about it, and its very doable - certainly others have made this work. It isn't clear to me, however, what the benefits are. Not saying that there are no bene's, they just haven't been obvious enough to me for me to feel compelled to make the experiment.

    Yeah, both materials have their place. CF can be incredibly durable. Steel can be a bit fragile. All steel failures are not graceful. All CF failures are not catastrophic. Epoxy doesn't melt from sitting in the sun. Well cared for, steel doesn't easily rust.

    I don't generally push weight limits. If I did, my first choice would be to do it with steel - even though that would make for a heavier frame - I'm just a bit more comfortable with steel at its limits. More importantly, its possible to hit minimum racing weights with either material - buy choosing the right kit. Consequently, I don't think folks should get too hung up on frame weight - and I don't commit to weights up front, nor report them at completion of the frame.

    Call me a contrarian, or an independent thinker, or just crusty, but I don't think there are substantial differences in how a frame feels based on its material. I think tires, and to some degree wheels, control the ride qualities. Frame design controls the handling. At the end of rides, we'll be sitting outside the coffee shop and someone always starts the debate on material qualities. I've learned to just sit and smile as various views are aired, usually just has they have been written in one of the various mags. All I know is that my two primary bikes are split - one steel and one carbon. And I can't ascribe a certain ride quality or feel to either that relates to its material.

    If I had to go with one material, it would be steel. Both for the tactile qualities during building, and an old school aesthetic. But that doesn't mean I don't like carbon fiber, and I would prefer to be able to continue to work with both.

    BTW, there wasn't room in the original post to point out that given the bully pulpit, I tend to get a bit windy. ;)

    Cheers & I love your work!

    Rick
    Rick,

    Thanks for your windy response! It shows you're methodical and analytical in thinking and arriving at creative solutions to problems. Necessity is a Mother after all.

    As for your comments on ride quality I am in firm agreement that wheels and tires make up a huge part of the equation and it's easy to get lost in the minutiae that materials provide.

    Thanks again for participating.

    Conor

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    I'm bit overdue for an update here. Hope everyone hasn't been waiting on the edge of their seats!

    The tour is over, which means new bike/product season is in high gear. Manufacturers bring many products out during the tour, then there's Interbike at in the fall. Between these two events are a whole series of PR announcements of new and improved products. Virtually all of these are distinguished as being part of the upcoming mode-year - whether they are immediately available, or not.

    This phenomena is one proof (if one is needed) that custom builders are in a different business from the big guys. It's possible that you can tell the build date from the serial number on a custom frame, but custom builders don't have model-years. And, manufacturers don't necessary build a given model-year of a bike during the same calander year. So what's going on here?

    Both framebuilding and bicycle manufacturing are businesses. And in some cases, the process of sticking bits together to create the frame, and bicycle, are similar. Apart from scale and 'model year' what justifies my contention that framebuilders and manufacturers are in different businesses?

    Let me say that I don't (even for a minute) think that the manufactured product is less than great. At the lower price points, a good framebuilder is pressed to compete with manufacturers on a function points per dollar basis. And at the upper end of the range, riders can purchase a variety of bikes ridden to victory on the pro-tour. Now days, the Pros generally ride the actual bikes sold by their sponsoring manufacturers - so this isn't a fiction or a fairy tail. Combine this with the fact that most riders don't have difficult fitting requirements, and the question can be raised: "Why have custom framebuilders?"

    As a business, I think that framebuilders have more in common with the cats who build custom hotrods than the Trek & Spec's of the world. We touch our riders in a way that no manufacturer does - and the stories of the various builders here at Smoked Out is evidence of that.

    Framebuilders offer, first and foremost, something unique. Working with a framebuilder, you're nearly guaranteed not to see a matching bike anywhere out on the road. As a rider, you're making a unique statement no manufactured bike with custom paint can offer. Framebuilders have no need for yearly model introductions, because each bike is unique. Framebuilders don't need abstract mechanical benefits (600 gm frames that need added weight to hit the UCI requirements) to set them apart from the field. Instead, they can focus on meeting a riders needs: mechanical, aesthetic, and pyschological. And make no mistake, customers select their framebuilders based on unique needs. Some want a frame from a giant in the field, others want to discover a new up and comer. Some are concerned with classic looks, others want to push the envelope of paint and decoration. Some are looking for a cohesive, even branded, look from their builders - others just want input on color. All these riders insist on performance and fit, that's a given. But there are so many ways to achieve these ends - each similar to and different from many other bikes - but unique to the rider in question.

    Every framebuilder can't meet every need. Selection of one's builder is a key part of the process, and a good builder helps by noting up front if the fit is questionable. But the product received goes deeper than the actual bike - there is the relationship established with the builder which endures, often beyond the bike itself. And if the means exist, the rider can establish these relationships with more than one builder. Consequently, some riders create a collection of bikes, not because they need to, but because the variety if fun and rewarding.

    It's possible to collect modern manufactured bikes. I think that the value in such a collection, however, is more in terms of finding bikes ridden by famous pros, than in enjoying varied solutions to the given problem of how to ride quickly from place A to place B.

    Not everyone covets the custom frame/builder. Many prefer to chase the fleeting latest and greatest. For them the annual model-year is a great invention. For those of us looking for something more enduring, however, a custom builder offers a great solution.

    And that's what I've been thinking about this morning as I worked to sand the filets on some chain-stay/drop-out joints.
    To old to know better

    www.cyclesnoir.com

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    Quote Originally Posted by CyclesNoir View Post
    I'm bit overdue for an update here. Hope everyone hasn't been waiting on the edge of their seats!

    <snip>.

    right on, bro.
    right funkicg on atmo.
    stay in the margins and resist the urge to merge.

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    Quote Originally Posted by CyclesNoir View Post
    I'm bit overdue for an update here. Hope everyone hasn't been waiting on the edge of their seats!

    snip
    Rick, Great reading!

    I've got 2 questions:

    Do you consider the framebuilder to be in the drivers seat when it comes to problem solving or do you approach it as a "the customer always gets what he wants" deal? IOW, if a customer asks for a specific solution to a problem would you do it even if it is not the best way or send him somewhere else? This assumes the customer won't be dissuaded.

    On your Carbon frames, do you buy tubes or make them yourself?

    Cheers
    Kevin

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    Kevin,

    Good questions.

    So far I'm a bit of a grouch about frame design. I won't do something with which i'm not comfortable, just because the customer wants it so. I'd rather be in charge my odds for keeping him/her happy. That said, I listen to all that is requested, and try to focus on meeting the riders goals/needs, rather than their design requests. Hope that makes sense.

    Of course there are always gray areas. Hellanic stays would be one. I don't like the idea of the stay ends joining the thin-walled part of the top-tube. With a heavier gauge tube, I'd consider doing them - but I'd encourage the rider to understand that from my POV, they are a sub-optimal structural solution.

    I buy my carbon tubing. It might be fun to play with making my own, but there is the question of time/space. And lots of available tube options (including the option to have Edge build tubes to my spec). Speaking of which, my carbon tube inventory is getting low and I'm going to have to order some more soon.

    BTW, I'm impressed by what you're doing.

    Rick
    To old to know better

    www.cyclesnoir.com

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    Hi Rick,

    Thanks, that does make sense and is very close to my point of view as well.

    Thanks also for the compliment. Your stuff looks great, too. You should post more pictures I'd like to see more.

    Cheers
    Kevin

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    I tend to be photo-challenged. Things get away from me before they're photographed. Others, I can seem to find the right combo of lighting/focus/background to sing. So here's a shot (no art) of a frame that's ready to clean up and paint.
    To old to know better

    www.cyclesnoir.com

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    A little filing & a little sanding then off to paint.
    Last edited by CyclesNoir; 08-05-2010 at 11:30 PM.
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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    For anyone who is interested, I have some new photos over at www.handmadebikes.blogspot.com .

    These show tubes and bits for a CF frame build.
    To old to know better

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    Hi Rick,
    Just checked out the carbon parts- looking forward to the build. You should do the play by play here.

    Question: Does it ever feel weird or maybe a little wrong when you have to use parts that have so many parts prefabbed? I was thinking of the chainstays with the drops/cable quide alreadt installed.

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    Hey Chauncey,

    Question: Does it ever feel weird or maybe a little wrong when you have to use parts that have so many parts prefabbed? I was thinking of the chainstays with the drops/cable quide alreadt [sic] installed.
    Good question. The answer is easy, but it took a while to figure out the explanation.

    No, it doesn't feel weird to use prefabbed parts in a CF build.

    The explanation has two parts:

    1) Virtually all builds use tons of prefabbed parts. That includes Steel, Ti, and Aluminum. CF is hardly the first material where tubing is provided by a manufacturer (therefore pre-fabbed). Fork blades and stays come pre-tapered, and sometimes pre-bent. A steel lugged BB is formed by the manufacturer with each of spigots pre-attached, and has been machined with threads. Very few builders make their own lugs. Metal dropouts are generally purchased as prefab pieces, as are cable stops, and other fittings. While the CF chain-stay is one piece (with a cable stop) and the seat-stay is one piece, that doesn't define CF as just glue-it-together. With CF, building the BB takes more work (ATMO) than with a Steel, Alu or Ti bike. Some of my cable stops are 'shop made' - and as my designs mature, more of them will so be. My internal cable routings are totally 'shop made'. I'm developing new ways to attach fittings that are more satisfactory to me than the pre-fabbed glue and rivet pieces. So, it's easy to look at the rear triangle and think that CF provides a shortcut to building, but that is only based on a limited understanding of total job required to make a CF frame.

    2) CF is its own material. Just like any other material, its necessary to understand its properties/behaviors and how various processes affect it. While there are some options for the rear triangle, which can offer differing characteristics, its also possible to modify how the rear triangle behaves. On several bikes I've laminated additional CF onto a prefab stay to make it stiffer. Also, how the chain-stay is connected to the BB and seat-tube will alter its stiffness. So the builder has to think of all these sorts of things and account for them as part of the design.

    As you may be able to tell, I'm not a big fan of riveted bits. Don't get me wrong, they work. But the solution is inelegant from my POV. Replaceable plastic inserts (ala some DI2-ready big brand bikes) are also inelegant to me. A molded in stop seems like an advantage to me, for weight, strength, longevity and aesthetics. So that's a piece of pre-fab I'm happy to employ - and don't feel as if it diminishes my efforts as a builder.

    Maybe there's a third part of the explanation based on where the state of CF custom building sits in the continuum of time. What to do with a steel build (or Alu or Ti) is pretty well defined and documented in places that are readily available. Standardized bits are available making pieces interchangeable. For CF building, that largely isn't true. Dedaccaia offers it forms of pre-fab head-tubes - although I don't use them and they tend to be particular to a given shaped tube set. They also require integrated headsets which I don't think of as being lifetime (owner not bike) investments. But when I first went to use PMW head-tube rings, there were no instructions, or stock head-tubes in which to fit them. Instead I contacted EDGE and spec'd what I wanted. The same was true of the BB. Mind you, I'm sure that I wasn't the first person to go to EDGE (or the then Reynolds Composites) for head and BB tubes to fit PMW parts. However, they weren't catalog items, and whatever they had produced before was considered proprietary to the builders with which they had worked.

    Before that, I used Alu BB's and head-tubes that were designed for Alu frames - which were a bit stout for the job. I'd wet wrap them in carbon to create the BB or head-tube, prior to connecting any tubes or stays.

    I may be guilty of crushing an ant here with a sledgehammer, but I hope that its clear that there many aspects of CF building which aren't close to pre-fab.

    Rick G.
    To old to know better

    www.cyclesnoir.com

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    Default Re: Cycles Noir

    A few pictures here, then next time back at www.handmadebikes.blogspot.com .

    To cut the tubes to rough shapes, I use an abrasive carbide blade in a hacksaw frame, here are the blades:


    When tubes come in all manner of custom sizes, standard tube blocks aren't likely to fit. That's when a Park bike stand helps:


    Even using the abrasive blades (which cut much better [and longer]) than regular toothed blades, it's possible to have individual fibers tear out. Because of the distance between the rough cut and the end of the tube, its hard to do much about this. But, before further cutting I'll put down a layer of medium CA glue inside of the rough cut. This will toughen the end of the tube before final trimming.


    And here's the other end of the tube:


    All of this step was less than 10 minutes - but there are two more tubes to miter, plus the rear triangle, plus the outer head-tube and BB. Time permitting, I'll have some more pictures to show either Thursday or Sunday.

    Apologies that the pix aren't showing properly. Hopefully this will resolve itself by the morning.
    Last edited by CyclesNoir; 08-26-2010 at 09:55 PM. Reason: TT has my pix back on track
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