Fillet Pro

[hmbatrail]

So I have been using Freddy's Fillet Pro for the last few frames and I really like it. It takes a little getting used to but what I like most is how easy it is to lay down the tinning pass. It is also a snap to clean up and finish. Has anyone else been working with it and what are your thoughts?

I attached a few photos of the process. I cleaned off the flux after the tinning pass just to take a few snaps.

[Craig Ryan]

Thanks Tim, that is beautiful.

[Freddy]

OK?
I have a question, what about distortion making the outer nice and full?
do you use heat sinks or is the process still below distortion temps?
Freddy

[hmbatrail]

Freddy,
I do not use heat sinks. I try to move fast and get the hell out of there.

For the tinning pass I use a bigger flame and pull the silver in and form a nice fillet on the inside. For the second pass I turn the flame down pretty damn small because too big of a flame and this shit will run away from you. I find the smaller flame allows me to build up a section, let it "freeze", and then I move on. I also find it is absolutely crucial that you are working from the top. If you try and lay the fillet uphill or downhill you'll regret it. So I am constantly rotating the frame to keep the work area facing up.

Unlike nickel silver or bronze where I make strokes across the joint with the rod to build up the fillet, with the Fillet Pro I start at the center of the joint and then feed silver into the fillet until it grows to the size I need. Am I making sense on that?

[suhacycles]

Those joints are very purty!

Tim, Freddy - Given the tensile strength of Fillet Pro is it safe to assume one can get away with doing a smaller fillet compared to brass, especially if one is using a light tube, say with 0.8 or 0.7mm butts?

Also, given the lower heat can you still use a lug-appropriate HT (31.7 dia, 1.0 wall) or is it recommended to use something beefier (33 dia, 1.5 wall)?

-Hansen

[hmbatrail]

I am quite certain that you can get away with smaller fillets than what I am laying down but I just like the look of a bigger fillet. It is personal preference based exclusively on aesthetics. One thing is for certain, it isn't making the joint weaker.

As far as tube wall thickness, I can't answer and don't have an opinion. All of the fillet work I have been doing has been for mountain bikes and I am running 37mm HT (and one 36mm) stock on those.

[Freddy]

Hey Doc?
Fillet Pro is stronger becuase it adheares stronger, copper is the limiting factor in all brazing rods.
So far many of the builds were in fact done to look like no filler was there?
Three to one seems to be enough for the tube to give way before the filler.
We are still doing models over here to set baselines with.

Short answer is a fillet made this way with the silver bearing bronze can be very small and light compared
to other rods and was intended for very thin tubes.

The Fillet Builder for cosmetics was not explained in the past years and was not re-made.
But stay tuned it will be

[Freddy]

Also Hansen, I am working on large project orders and consultations for industry almost all my waking hours.
I don't want you guys to think I am giving out flip answers or avoiding writing papers and posting them on my website.
My days have been around 20 hrs long just keeping my portions done.
I am trying now to put back up a web to explain in detail all of the methods.
I now have some dedicated help and a very detailed help site is coming soon.

Thanks for questions, keep them coming.

Your success is the most important issue.
Always has been.

[YiPsan]

Great work Tim.

I have been using this stuff for a while too, but I use it sparingly on occasions that calls for low / zero heat distortion. So, I used it on EBBs where I don't use heat sinks and do not want any post heat reaming and such. It works great. A bit of a challenge as compared with lfb, but the result pays off.

Thanks Freddy.

[suhacycles]

Also Hansen, I am working on large project orders and consultations for industry almost all my waking hours.
I don't want you guys to think I am giving out flip answers or avoiding writing papers and posting them on my website.
My days have been around 20 hrs long just keeping my portions done.
I am trying now to put back up a web to explain in detail all of the methods.
I now have some dedicated help and a very detailed help site is coming soon.

Thanks for questions, keep them coming.

Your success is the most important issue.
Always has been.

You da man Freddy... always a pleasure and a learning experience!

[Freddy]

Follow up for Fillet Pro.
The final formulas for a new all purpose Silver Braze for Lugs is now done, It will replace the weaker 56% but flow just as well.
It is a broad flow range eutectic that can fill large gaps and still flow down to the tightest fit.
We have named it 48 Lug Braze.
Pricing will be lower than 56% and once again it is great for SS using the Stainless Light flux.
48 Lug Braze can be used with inline fluxers for Steel lugs and tubing, only needs the SSLight for SS.
The LFB and the fluxes have been finished for several weeks and the last of the backorders have been shipped.
The Object is to cover the entire joining issue regardless of temp control issues, so the highest quality products
for joining can be sustainable to the community.
Now that we have an LFB system working at true mid-range temps, many applications will excel at very low cost.
Joining investment cast lugs and thin wall super tubes will now enjoy a system that covers the entire build at much lower cost and ease of control due to wider clearance flow to fill range.

CDG senior member Wade Barocsi will be taking over the web in a few days when updates are done, the Lug Braze was developed By Wade and Fred over the winter.
http://www.cycledesignusa.com

[CyclesNoir]

That sounds cool! New things never stop coming from you, do they?

[Freddy]

Not a happy holiday season in regards to silver bearing products, the cost is soaring, Hank is now at $35 for the 56%
Our longtime friendship with weldfabulous just moved to $34.18 so many people are starting with much more cost to build in the preferred manner of lugs and silver.
I have worked very hard to make sure that all options remained in the supply and this really comes in at a bad time.
Please don't think we are raising prices for profit, our "Fillet Pro" and "System 48" sell out as fast as we can get it from the mills and is also subject to the silver market.
Quality is always first, I hope this settles down before silver options are just priced out.
The ease and dependable use of low temp alloys should be the first option for great builds, I am so sorry that the cost has become so intimidating,

[Freddy]

Just a reminder, I am not selling any products and all products come from Wade, but I will answer questions if you call me. 520-364-1334

Wade is at Cycle Design USA

[zank]

This past week, I've brazed up three lugged bikes with System 48 and one fillet frame with Fillet Pro. Wade's been keeping a steady stream of material headed this way. It's the only stuff I use.

[steve garro]

How much are you raising your prices to accomidate the huge difference in price of a silver filler v. a copper based one? Are you sucking it up or passing it on? That's some expensive shiny dust under the bench! Help me here - Frames built with brass last forever, longer then the owner if built by a knowledgable builder. An honest question! Of course I can see the benefits if joining Stainless, but most of us are not building full stainless frames............Just steel, for which LFB works great/lasts forever - let's see if we can keep the responses from going ratshit-batshit crazy, huh? - Garro.

[EricKeller]

even with stainless, Dave Anderson says he's using nickel silver, which is similar in price to lfb

[Freddy]

Guys I can't raise prices, I don't sell the stuff?
The only advanced offering that may come along is a lowsilver and nickel LFB in rod and paste form next year.
This is comparing Apples to Oranges, if you don't join thin modern tubes like the current Tandem Project at Porters you can have wonderful success with lfb.
Problem is the trends moving into this century require a better flux and rod which leads to a high silver one.
Hank was first to re-post a $35 per OZ selling price, I don't even think the guys that now have Cycle Design have even moved on re-pricing yet?
Issues are were "Distorsion and degrading" of some tubings is served very well with high silver bronze fillers.
And your skill and experience level, you are and always have been great with a torch in your hand, I would trust your work 100% of the time like I would trust my own.
That portion of builders that use thin sets and or lugs is a different venue?
I am fighting like crazy to keep pricing down by talking to wire mills but this "Bicycle" end of supply is not interesting to them.
That alloy you got is just fine for what you practice, so is the one I had made, some higher nickel alloys creep a lot and can become too brittle when run in thicker passes or cooled too fast.
I am standing behind the "Fillet Pro" where pure excellence is required, but well over a hundred years of plain LFB use is fine and I don't have any problems with it, getting into generic Nickel Bronze is a bit iffy and I have tested some on the bench that are common in welding stores and they just are very marginal.
I am so sorry you got in the crossfire when Smith stopped producing my favorite regs and it still hurts a lot.
I had no idea they were downsizing until it was too late.
The retail of brazing products is downsizing as I write this and that hurts also, but I have no control? I have beta tested many machines over the years past and correctly done machines with a high silver seem to have a bit more life, but an incorrectly plain bronze one is often dead as a stone, no they don't break, but something is lost.
Care and experience is lord of results.
You have that and you have my concerns and support for anything I can ever help with.
The next few months may seem like a rollercoaster with pricing but if it goes like history before it will settle down again.

Stay warm up there, we are real cold down here.
Freddy

[pruckelshaus]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I have a brass vs silver question. I'm almost done frame number two, so I'm still a newb. I've built these two frames under the tutelage of an experienced builder that only uses silver on lugged frames, and I think for my third frame (a buddy wants a lugged fixed gear 650b commuter with cantilevers) I think I'm going to try it on my own. The problem is that as a beginner, the $30/oz or so cost for 56% silver starts to add up pretty quickly. Apart from differences in melting temperatures and the coarser clearances required for brass brazing, are there any reasons for me to not try brass with frame number three? I'll just be using double butted cro-mo, nothing exotic at all, with cast lugs, and would use silver for bosses, bridges, and other braze-ons. What brass and flux is recommended? Is there a type that flows easier or is more forgiving than others?

Thanks,

Pete

[Freddy]

Since some comments have been made about various jioning quality?
The long version won't fit in this forum.
There are so many issues that only a full chapter of data and beta results would be needed.
The short version is a high silver bronze like "Fillet Pro" is easy fast and secure and has been pressed into competition by other posters on this string with no problems.
It is as close to distortion free as we can get.
And it is strong enough to allow very small fillets that are secure, and it cleans up fast.

When I was testing oversized handmade tubes that were reeled very thin I used a similar alloy to make the "Whats holding it together" look but the oversized tubes were not accepted, they in fact were rejected and almost a decade went by before anyone made anything with bigger dia tubes,and of course that was Masi.
Masi in Italy joined with brazing methods but when it came to California A45C quickly was adopted and most if not all were made with Cad 45 Silver.
I was too interested in SS to pay much attention but I remamber that part.

No one can put any price on consumables if they work for them, selections are fast and clean and durable and of course expensive or that sweat and tool cost to finish lower priced ones.
There is also the deception of marketing like "Air Hardening" all steels do that and can do it to the point of failure.
The Great Oscar Wastyn beleived as I do the less heat the better, but heat by itself is not a really big deal, like a spring freeze that wipes out your peaches, it is duration and highs and lows and cool down rates and alloy filler composition.