BRAZING: alloys & fluxes.

[Eric Estlund]

Thanks Freddy, I'll give it a shot. Sort of a contact tin to seal the edges?

[steve garro]

At the risk of making Brother Steve mad there is now the" System 48" which is a little less money, but I stand firm on the cost of using silver is worth it for ease of construction and the bikes tend to last very well.

I'm not mad, that's not how I am. it's just that i started this thread hoping to give visuals as to what results people are getting & every time someone posts it turns into a cycle design ad. c'mon, guys. let your builders show the results. everything else is just 1's & 0's. - Garro.

[Freddy]

Thanks Freddy, I'll give it a shot. Sort of a contact tin to seal the edges?

The tinning effect follows the heated progression of the filler as if it had the elements in it, elements can be added to fluxes also in powdered and oxides forms.
Andersons comment about nickel is valid but old school for some complicated reasons, it like a lot of other joining processes was the norm using acid fluxes that would cause alloy separation during the heated bonding.
Current SS joining in aerospace all the way to nuclear piping is a little different and I could go on for days on how it works, short answer is nickel displacement and the path to inter facial corrosion or scabbing.
Modern SS fluxes don't raise this issue like ones of the past, the SS alloys seal off with a very small trace of nickel and lots of tin just fine.
Reynolds/ Columbus recommends A56T for example using commercial black flux (3411) recently due to the numbers of UK builders using Fillet Pro, Reynolds has recommended it to those that inquire.
It has no "Interfacial" issues and only contains a trace of nickel making it user easy and very predicable.
That stated, if it is used with potassium bi-flouride flux it loses those qualities substantially, but for case in point if a leader was used even that way the interfacial would be reduced, but not a good idea.
Same thing happens where too much flouride will wash out zinc and so forth.
That product "Muggy Weld" is just A56T but it has a killer flux and can work magic because it was planned that way.
Since guys that formulate these joining alloys can't be looking over your shoulder 24/7 some operators miss use product combinations in the largest industries but on a grand scope the SS joining methods developed in India a couple of decades ago have been re-fined and are norm today.
Remember that 50 years ago SS for nuclear mills was plated before brazing, yipes we have come a long way...

[Freddy]

I'm not mad, that's not how I am. it's just that i started this thread hoping to give visuals as to what results people are getting & every time someone posts it turns into a cycle design ad. c'mon, guys. let your builders show the results. everything else is just 1's & 0's. - Garro.

I am now a private party, feels good, now I can keep playing with alloys and methods, so let's hope they send lots of pics and think out of the box !
I hope the CDG keeps on keeping on but I remain on my quest for answers and results.

I hope you don't think I am a "Piss ant" but I am kinda stoked about all the results ! This is great !

Fredddy

[Freddy]

As Fredie said, in general, the lower the number the better the gap filling ability....however, the best fillers for stainless include nickel, especially if the joint will be exposed to the elements in some way. Even better are fillers with nickel, but no zinc...a little harder to work with though...and a LOT harder to find.

Dave

I could try and get a great price on 58n to help, I have used that one in the past myself and it goes in those lugs very well ?
And zip on zinc, it is an old school std and 100% great results...

[Dave Anderson]

Freddy,

I am not exactly sure of what everything you said means, but believe me (or not...its no skin off my nose, as my grandpa used to say :-) ), when working with stainless on stainless, especially, Interfacial Corrosion is a real concern, especially when dealing with Martensitic type alloys.

Even the makers of Silvaloy A56T state: " Where improved corrosion resistance is needed, Silvaloy 50N and Silvaloy A-40N2 are recommended over silver base filler metals not containing nickel."

I've seen it first hand and I've discussed it with a metallurgist.... as the saying goes "your mileage may vary", but I know that I personally will not stick anything like a stainless drop out on a stainless frame with a filler that does not contain nickel.....especially if the joint area is not going to see paint....

Just my $.02

Dave

[steve garro]

I hope the CDG keeps on keeping on

yeah, it would be great if they could actually have the product ready to ship when they charge you for it instead of telling you it is & then you don't see anything for six months and then finally you get a big bag with "scraps" written on it consisting of mixed unlabeled alloys in 4-6" lengths, or charged for regs which never show up for months while you are dead in the water & end up buying others, only to have some finally show up which are USED, and then months later others show up from a third party that I could have bought from myself & not been upcharged for. I hope that it not only "keeps on" but that it actually becomes a reliable buisness entity. - Garro.

[Freddy]

I think the string has now become distracted.
I am standing firm on how hard this has been, such as being removed as a distributer because I moved to AZ without notice, no goods available after twenty years of providing them without problems. And my favorite two stage regs were discontuned without notice, leaving orders still open and no product to fill them.

Steve is Mad but He never mentioned it to me and has never returned loaners I got while fighting it out with the factory.

This explains it all , very hard to keep it all even when you don't know about it?

And when I called and asked I got all is fine, no problem answers.

The entire project to take my products to market ended up $158,000 dollars in Chapter 7 so that part is history, almost cost me my home.
The Group members stepped up and have a better business plan but remember the factories change terms without notices, so one day is rosey the next is bust.

The entire issue of re-canting options is useful and fun, but it will never pay the bills, the clock is ticking on the day that members won't be able to get bottle gas not to mention any joining products, that is the near future being adopted city by city, I fight like hell to keep the open food chain and it has cost enough time, I am not only out but but my heart is broken, my intentions not only have been there 100% but my wallet also.

Thanks Steve, we will see how the new guys do with what is there to work with.
As for pictures?
Lets see all these SS failures everyone is witch hunting? I have seen one in fifty years, don't have any pictures?

[e-RICHIE]

as long as the chat remains civil i will keep the thread live.
the moment it gets personal or he said she said, it's locked.

[Dave Anderson]

Freddie,

My post was not meant to offend, it was meant only to respond to the point about Interfacial issues, which you brought up and then seemed to dismiss, in response to my post about nickel. If I offended you, please accept my apology.

As I said, I only provided my point of view and tried to make it clear that it was only my point of view. I think we all have a right to post our own opinion and experience. As I also said....it doesn't matter to me if others agree with me or not. I know what works for me and gives me peace of mind.....I have no problem not posting what I know if its offensive or of no use to anyone.

In addition, looking back at this thread it appears that you may be taking offense to what I said with respect to corrosion because of posts which reference your products. Please be advised that I have never used any CDG products and have no idea if they contain nickel or not. As far as I know they work perfectly for their intended use and nothing I said was intended to imply otherwise.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

Sincerely,

Dave

[Freddy]

Problems are past history long since over.

If a valid documented info is desirable I am sure Dave B or Wade B will provide it later.

Sincerely Freddy

[dbohemian]

I hope that it not only "keeps on" but that it actually becomes a reliable buisness entity. - Garro.

Steve,

I do not know and cannot comment on what has happened in the past. Wade and I have been doing this for over a year now and we have had product consistently and shipped expeditiously.

[Archibald]

...were I had tacked the seat first with the MIG (on the lowest setting) and then finished with silver fillet. After, oh 6 months of use, the down tube literally blew out a chunk of steel. I'll add a pic, it's a lousy pic but you see the result... My conclusion is don't MIG Columbus Spirit, even though the factory says it'll handle the heat.. I don't recall the down tube being MIG tacked as I generally just lay the mitered tube unsupported into the assembly then braze, so there should not have been any pre-load on the tube.

You really did this? You mig tacked a tube in place before brazing it? You're putting me on, right?

[jerk]

.......

[Freddy]

If you take the time to read that, the tube that blew out was NOT the tube that was tacked.
This was a long time before I hooked up with Porter so don't get any bright ideas?
Dave and I discussed this some time back and since it was the down tube which was silver brazed in a second procedure it remains unclear?
Other failures exactly like this one surfaced from other builders that were discussed, one of those builders from the UK bronze brazed and a piece of the down tube began to crack away on the side?

One 953 build by a premier UK builder broke in an odd pattern mid seat tube, now get this, when heat was applied a foot farther up the tube to fit the seat binder?

I don't think Dave's problem was a result of the mig tack in anyway, it was done during a previous pass, the broken tube was added on later.

And even though factories have mig tacked in the past, regardless it doesn't agree with me, I would never do it or recommend it, I think I mentioned this before?

[Eric Estlund]

Dave, can you post some shots of your stuff in the buff with the filler/ flux combos you have found successful? I loves me the pictures.

[Dave Anderson]

Dave, can you post some shots of your stuff in the buff with the filler/ flux combos you have found successful? I loves me the pictures.

Gasflux blue flux and generic LFB...plain gas-no fluxer:

[Freddy]

Now that is really nice, Dave has some serious skill and feeling for form.
Thanks loads for posting that,
Freddy

[Dave Anderson]

Now that is really nice, Dave has some serious skill and feeling for form.
Thanks loads for posting that,
Freddy

Thank you, Freddy!

Dave

[Dornbox]

Did that help?

YES! I was assuming that meat of the structural or shear strength was derived from the silver content but if I'm understanding correctly it's more about gap and flow.

PS back in my days years ago I used a lot of 45 to put in Wilson drops and my own 17/4 drops, I like it fine, good choice, if the gaps are way bigger the Fillet Pro can fill those a bit better. It is lower silver yet.

Do you know of any successfully examples of builders using say Fillet Pro to build a bike with "micro" fillets?

Thanks Freddy!-Chris