BRAZING: alloys & fluxes.

[EricKeller]

no flare is really nice. Can't wait

[Freddy]

Eric?
Are you on Georgine's list to ship to?
Make sure we have your mailing info.

Email her at parnal101@netscape.com

We only have the 1/16 right now, will get some rod pulled in bigger sizes soon.

Freddy

[steve garro]

Time to dig this thread up. here are more results. 45% silver + black flux. minimal finishing. Please contribute your results with minimal finishing or raw. If you want me to test alloys & post results then send them to me & I will. - Garro.

[Dave Porter]

Steve,
Just to be clear, the Black is the so called Stainless-Light that you are referring to.. yes?
dave

[steve garro]

Steve,
Just to be clear, the Black is the so called Stainless-Light that you are referring to.. yes?
dave

Nope. it's gasflux type "H" - Garro.

[Eric Estlund]

I could have sworn I posted these, but on reviewing the thread I guess not.

Comparison photos of Gasflux and Cycle Design CO4, LFB and brass fluxes:

Top tube :CO4 w/ GF Blue
Down Tube: Brazage LFB w/ Light Flux


Top Tube: Brazage LFB w/ Light Flux
Down Tube: CO4 w/ GF Blue


Top and Down tubes with Brazage Light Flux and CO4 rod


And a few of my standard Co4/ GF blue/ gas fluxer combo:

[steve garro]

I could have sworn I posted these, but on reviewing the thread I guess not.

and a few of my standard Co4/ GF blue/ gas fluxer combo:

looks kinda conclusive. what are your thoughts? I think we are running the same mix. here: Auf. 680, gasflux blue, gasfluxer med/lo & thousands of brazes under my belt. - Garro.

[Eric Estlund]

looks kinda conclusive. what are your thoughts?

My thoughts- filler rod is a distant second to torch control and practice (no kidding, right?)

Specifically, both are way better then welding shop "mystery rod" and that practice with one and material consistency are more important to repeatable results. To be nit-picky, the LFB wet out and ran a bit more (which could bre GREAT for lugs/ sleeves) and the CO4 (with its higher nickel content) seemed to make a slightly easier to control fillet bead. That said, meh, they are virtually interchangeable. My next purchase on rod (still a lot of Co4 in the box) will likely be based on price and availability- these were both good.

I am used to the gas flux paste and felt I got better results regardless of filler, but I didn't have much of the Cycle Design to work with. I really liked that it was white, and it seemed to work quite well. Again, price and availability.

As a side note, I never had the "bad" CO4 some folks did, or if I did it was just so much better then the mystery rod I was subjected to at the time (while working for someone else) I never noticed. More important then the particular composition is the internal consistency within and between batches. I use way less rod now then I used to (I don't braze 8 bikes a day any more), so that will be a little harder for me to gauge.

[Freddy]

The results are pretty much what I got on my test bench, the object of re-formulations was to address adhesion and to get some of the toxins out of the rods and the fluxes.
CDA 680 and CO 4 are the same formulas and used all across industry, they both contain LEAD to obtain the nice flat fillet surface.
Lead lowers the adhesion a bit but mostly is present in many alloy formulas, I took the step to add the more expensive Tin ratio for a safer and more adhesive alloy.
Steve's results with a Black silver flux and 45% is consistent with results I have always enjoyed over more than fifty years of SS silver joining, the flux is key here and always will be, Black fluxes fall into two groups, those with bi-flouride and those without, I prefer the flouroborate versions for the lower toxic issues.
Wade can provide the SS extreme which is very black but in our tests results with SS light are very close to the same.
Gas Flux products have shown me a gross advantage over those sold by welding supply stores, Harris is very marginal compared to mine.
The difference is all of mine have no bi-flouride or lead and as you can see the current versions work well and of course I will continue to improve them.
The improvement that stands out in this economy is that the price is not going to be an issue and now that they are certified the basic mill costs are lower than ever before.
Anyway to sum one issue up, CDG LFB is high tin / lead free and very effective for thin wall joining, if demand for more nickel ever comes around it is a simple process to add nickel and still leave out the lead.
The current CDG LFB does flow a bit more and helps provide that essential inner fillet for nice secure joints.
These formulas are donated and I receive no profits from them, if they work well it is worth it.
So if you understand the differences and of course the point that other vendors meantioned in this string don't make CDA 680 ? They just sell it re-labelled and ours is registered under an entirely different grade which is a varient of another type altogether.
Since I can offer the higher tin ratio - ours will continue to be available and I have no interest in becoming another source for 680
So now folks have a choice and that is a good thing.

[edoz]

One thing I've noticed since I got a batch of the Cycle Design LFB rod and flux is that it wets out on the edges a bit better, and I don't have as much filing to do to get a smooth transition from tube to fillet. It might just be more skill on my part, but it pretty much started when I got Freddy's LFB. Of course, noob friendly isn't really important to Eric or Steve;)

[dbohemian]

My next purchase on rod (still a lot of Co4 in the box) will likely be based on price and availability- these were both good.

Thanks Eric for putting that up!

We have lots of product and can ship in a timely manner. Please contact us if anyone needs larger quantities and we will try and make it advantageous to buy from us. Really, there are some differences as Freddy pointed out but the fact is this is bronze and there is only so much you can do with it. What we really are trying to offer with this product/s is a super clean, consistent source that is made in the USA that you can count on sold by people who are part of the community of framebuilding.

Thanks again.

[pruckelshaus]

Here's a really dumb question, and it may go way beyond the scope of this thread. I'm beginning my second frame. My first was lugged steel, silver brazed with 56% safety-silv. It was easy enough to work with, but the cost of the silver was (to me) insanely high -- well over $100 of silver in a single frame.

How different is brass to work with? I understand that the wet temp is a lot higher, and that the close tolerances that are required for silver would be impossible to get brass to really flow. But, really, is it any more difficult to work with once you get the metal hot enough? My mentor (Peter Dreesens) is a silver for lugged frames guy, so convincing him that I want to try brass might be a bit tough...

Thanks,

Pete

[steve garro]

Can we please keep this thread sales pitch free? Let the products sell themselves. If you have an alloy, well then MELT SOME AND POST YOUR RESULTS. simple enough, huh? Thanks! - Garro.

[Freddy]

Can we please keep this thread sales pitch free? Let the products sell themselves. If you have an alloy, well then MELT SOME AND POST YOUR RESULTS. simple enough, huh? Thanks! - Garro.

Hey Steve,
Now that I have retired from any sales I tend to agree, in fact I brought up the issue of the fine line of explaining the results of the R&D and tossing in a sales pitch.
Since providing products for use offers no noticable profit and is mostly a service I agree that results are much more of a benefit to inquiring builders.

I see in the posts that a comment was made about price and availability and now that resulted in an answer.

FYI I made the model of exploring products many years ago and I know exactly who makes what and where, if we can just keep the guys out of the trap of buying inferior products from local welding supply sources and on the net, that is a bonus.

All of the products from Gas Flux exceed LWS offerings in most venues as do the CDG ones.

The gross money volumn of supply sales to builders is a joke, people that engage to help to supply have to do it for love of the craft in the interest of being a help.

You can't blame some of the reports to be enthused when the builder finds these products useful.

I report with prudence to explain what changes are present without going into endless mechanical details.

In the industry of products such as wire and rod there is an ungoing trend to remove lead and if this runs true to past experience then I got ahead of it by doing so.

So that said, keep those pictures coming and I hope they ask questions and even complian - that is how progress can be made.

We are all very lucky to have the history of all the hard work from Hank and Monika to keep supplies coming in spite of hard times over the years.
The creed stems from caring and sharing, those elements are the driving energy within all of the vendors I know that focus on bicycle frame products.

You can be assured that the products do sell themselves, the quality levels of common options are very dismal.

Although a visual inspection of any joint falls quite short of determining it's integrity it still helps set a base line so I hope the pictures keep coming>>> Let'S Ride !

[Dornbox]

Steve,

I use 56 with anything stainless because "that's what I was told". What are the befits you find in using 45 and is there a situation where you feel one is a better choice than the other? Gorgeous work by the way! -Chris

[Freddy]

Here's a really dumb question, and it may go way beyond the scope of this thread. I'm beginning my second frame. My first was lugged steel, silver brazed with 56% safety-silv. It was easy enough to work with, but the cost of the silver was (to me) insanely high -- well over $100 of silver in a single frame.

How different is brass to work with? I understand that the wet temp is a lot higher, and that the close tolerances that are required for silver would be impossible to get brass to really flow. But, really, is it any more difficult to work with once you get the metal hot enough? My mentor (Peter Dreesens) is a silver for lugged frames guy, so convincing him that I want to try brass might be a bit tough...

Thanks,

Pete

Right? so I will be short and to the point, silver lugged building and bronze lugged building are apples and oranges, if you want to change to bronze it will require increasing clearances and so forth, I find it takes longer to prepare and finish although in my day I made a ton of bronze brazed frames before slowly changing to silver.
At the risk of making Brother Steve mad there is now the" System 48" which is a little less money, but I stand firm on the cost of using silver is worth it for ease of construction and the bikes tend to last very well.

If you get down this way before you star your next build, I will be happy to walk you through sucking bronze though some lugs.
Good luck, speed and quality cost money, damn shame but true.

[Freddy]

Steve,

I use 56 with anything stainless because "that's what I was told". What are the befits you find in using 45 and is there a situation where you feel one is a better choice than the other? Gorgeous work by the way! -Chris

> One more I can answer<
That 45 or 56 or any other number is the amount in ratio to other metals in a silver bearing bronze wire.
The smaller the number as a rule of thumb <> the greater the gap can be filled and the larger the number is thinner flowing for tighter fittings.

When working with SS the only critical elements are a good active SS intended flux and binder adhesion elements such as tin or nickel or cad present in the sliver alloy filler.

(wire with no binders will look fine after brazing and just peel right off the SS)

Did that help?

PS back in my days years ago I used a lot of 45 to put in Wilson drops and my own 17/4 drops, I like it fine, good choice, if the gaps are way bigger the Fillet Pro can fill those a bit better. It is lower silver yet.

[Eric Estlund]

I'm not Steve, but 45 fills gaps more easily (it wets out less and build up more) and with less likely hood of internal cracking. I use 56 for lugs and lug like joints,some braze ons and jet ports. 45 for filling gaps or teeny fillets. I also use brass for all those things as well (save on stainless) depending n the application.

Defluxed brass (Co4) crown:


Defluxed 56 (CD) crown:


Defluxed-ish brass steel drop out:


Defluxed 45 (harris, not my fave) SS drop out:

[Freddy]

Dear Eric, try this trick on a SS drop sometime, touch down and flow a little 56T any brand on the SS and follow up for final fill with 45 harris and watch the magic.
The joint result will not only be more complete but will run faster.
The method is called using a "Leader" and has been done since the dawn of time.

Thanks Freddy

[Dave Anderson]

Steve,

I use 56 with anything stainless because "that's what I was told". What are the befits you find in using 45 and is there a situation where you feel one is a better choice than the other? Gorgeous work by the way! -Chris

As Fredie said, in general, the lower the number the better the gap filling ability....however, the best fillers for stainless include nickel, especially if the joint will be exposed to the elements in some way. Even better are fillers with nickel, but no zinc...a little harder to work with though...and a LOT harder to find.

Dave