BRAZING: alloys & fluxes.

[EricKeller]

Steve, thanks for this thread, I learned from it. I'm too self critical to post unfinished brazing right now. I just did my first stainless dropout yesterday, so Dave Porter's post was perfect to make me feel paranoid. I really have a hard time believing that you can get a nice wet-out on a layer of refractory material, but I suppose anything can happen.

Steve, could you walk me through your process on this? I will be attempting this for the first time in a month or so (same dropouts). ...... How much silver do you put down the chainstay? My plan is to notch the chainstay, and file a shelf onto the dropout so that there are multiple surface to attach too.

I used black safety-silv flux from Harris and Freddy's fillet pro. I filed a shoulder on the dropout because it seemed to make sense to me. The way I've always brazed dropouts is that I fill them up for a while and when I get to the point where I have a nice surface and want to stop, I flow the braze down in and start over building material. I don't see how you can have too much; many have proven that you can have too little.

[Dave Porter]

Steve, WAIT! You're one of the heroes. I might be completely off base and if this is a combo you've used successfully for a long time then its me that's just remembering wrong and that's a VERY likely possibility ! Look, I never paid much attention to the formula for this or the formula for that and did what worked for me with the stuff I could buy locally so all this recent tech talk about fillers and fluxes has been a real learning experience for me and I'm only beginning to experiment with some of the stuff I've read about..
dp
PS thanks for the B'day wishes...

[JuanGrande]

actually, no - i can't. this is the internet. if i told you it would be: "put it together, get it hot & when the flux is clear, shove rod into it." you want a solid plug to form at the D-Out end. i can say that if you do not have experence brazing stainless at all then this is going to be a 10min. uber-frustrating $150.00 exercise in bashing your head into the bench. not being "snarky" at all. you just can't teach this stuff on the WWW. you can recomend alloys & fluxes, though...... - Garro.

Thanks for the response Steve - I completely understand not being able to teach this via the internet. I have brazed stainless dropouts before... plug-in style though. Next time I will be more specific in my question - let me try this again;
1) I wasn't familiar with Type "H" flux - is that better to use than Type "U" flux (white) for this style of dropout and joining method?
2) Are you using standard 45n sliver, or is it some of the special blend that Freddy Parr has being making?
3) If using normal 45n silver, will it build up similar to brass in terms of filling the chainstay end? (I have done similar paragon dropouts in 4130 with brass that have turned out great).

Just trying to avoid a $150.00 exercise in bashing my head into the bench...will probably try a few test runs once I can find some appropriate chucks of stainless. sorry for hijacking the thread.

Jonathan

[JuanGrande]

Steve, thanks for this thread, I learned from it. I'm too self critical to post unfinished brazing right now. I just did my first stainless dropout yesterday, so Dave Porter's post was perfect to make me feel paranoid. I really have a hard time believing that you can get a nice wet-out on a layer of refractory material, but I suppose anything can happen. I used black safety-silv flux from Harris and Freddy's fillet pro. I filed a shoulder on the dropout because it seemed to make sense to me. The way I've always brazed dropouts is that I fill them up for a while and when I get to the point where I have a nice surface and want to stop, I flow the braze down in and start over building material. I don't see how you can have too much; many have proven that you can have too little.

Thanks Eric

[EricKeller]

I don't know how different the 45n is from the Fillet Pro because I've never needed it before so I only used the Fillet Pro. My understanding is that 45n is very similar in build properties to the Fillet Pro. The Fillet Pro will just sit in a lump if you let it, so it's not all that different from LFB.

[steve garro]

Steve, WAIT! You're one of the heroes. did what worked for me with the stuff I could buy locally so all this recent tech talk about fillers and fluxes has been a real learning experience for me and I'm only beginning to experiment with some of the stuff I've read about..
dp
PS thanks for the B'day wishes...

right back atcha, DP. peas in a pod........i just want to SEE failure pics. guys {you included, right?} do whole frame in silver alloys.......i wanna know about stuff guys like you and Joel @ clockwork {or the mystrious Jaylon Hawk} are using. carry on - Garro.

[Dave Porter]

Failures? The bane of our existence..
The only one I know about, as it was my personal ride, was a down tube failure at the BB, were I had tacked the seat first with the MIG (on the lowest setting) and then finished with silver fillet. After, oh 6 months of use, the down tube literally blew out a chunk of steel. I'll add a pic, it's a lousy pic but you see the result... My conclusion is don't MIG Columbus Spirit, even though the factory says it'll handle the heat.. I don't recall the down tube being MIG tacked as I generally just lay the mitered tube unsupported into the assembly then braze, so there should not have been any pre-load on the tube.

[steve garro]

Failures? The bane of our existence..
..

right on - thanks, Dave. i had a 200+lb strong animal of a rider riding the paragon slider lites joined as i have shown and the 30x16 CS cracked after two years - * in the middle of the stay, about where the tire runs, a 29er, driveside. * for no obvious reason, no Cs brace or anything. internal tube blem, i reckon. instant warrenty, brand new bike {so i got to hacksaw the old one apart & try to bust the brazes, even the silver joints - bomber} So, the joint was totally good to go. frame was even still straight, just creaked. Paragon had made 1000's of these dropouts & they are going good for many builders. - Garro.

[Freddy]

I can validate the use of 45N and Harris Black as providing an excellent bond on drops, I put most of the G.P.Wison ones in that way after testing all the options 30 years ago.
The Fillet Pro works just as good, the other one we made but had almost no response from we called the Builder which was slightly higher Silver.
That comment about teaching on the web with photos is more valid, all silver will flow out over SS and they all look the same in a photo. The bond is different depending on how clean, how hot, the flux and if it has leader elements, the rod composition.
If builders insist on experimentation and do not depend on professional flux/rod combos after 30+years of 100% secure joining?
Oh Well ?
I will be happy to list the current offerings from every mill in the world, they all have them, most are not available at retail.
If a source at retail for 45N is available to the builder? well that is a bonus, good stuff for SS.
All versions of flux and Silver rods are in the same retail pricing structure, so I suggest getting some bikes built and if I can help I will.
Rule of basic SS joining is avoid the really cheap generic 45% and if you do use it, use a step braze by leading in some rod with lots of tin or a portion of Nickel.
Oh and PS Harris Black flux does not have the leader elements in it to make the correct flowout of Fillet Pro, only our SS light does, they work as a reverse step brazing system >>>
The Builder and or one of the A - T rods in 40-45% which can be bought from Keith Aufhauser work very well with any black flux and most of the newer fluxes that are tri-fluoride, the choices number in the low hundreds from mills around the world.
So if you want to experiment further than what is already pretty old tech, I doubt if you will get in too much trouble.
Rods like Muggyweld and Eutectic 1020FC and XFC have been around for decades and are fool proof also, you choose?
As far as Fillet Pro goes it works and there are builds with over 20,000 miles on them out there being ridden daily, I saw the bond layers under an Electron Microscope in 2001 and compared to all other rods and fluxes the bond sold me to spend my own money to have it made to help out the acceptance of SS in our bicycles, to date it sells out faster than I can get the monitored special order runs done and I make no profit that could offset the $47,000 dollars of R&D within the next several years?
The successes have been my payroll, it keeps me ticking, as well as Clockwork !
BTW the offerings from our group will be managed by David Bohm and Wade Barocsi from now on, and I am happy to report that the supply of fluxes and rods will be quite a bit more steady from now on. And prices kept as low to help out as possible.
A new custom LFB flux is now finished to my specs and is going into production- right now.
Supply of modified CDA 681 will combine with this new flux to add more viable options to braze anything - SS included at much reduced temp to flow.
That is all I have to report?
Glad someone brought up that 45N, I had it on my site for sale for a couple of years and no bites? Good stuff for tab drops right off the shelf. Bond results are very stable,not as ductile as I would like to see for main tubes, I will ask next time I am up in Cleveland for some Electron print outs so you all can see.
Keep on tick'n guys great stuff !

[e-RICHIE]

hey freddy welcome aboard atmo.
i am finally back to work, and the 56 you sent is a dream.
i'll be down for more soon...

[Dave Porter]

The bond is different depending on how clean, how hot, the flux and if it has leader elements, the rod composition.

Freddy,

I was trying to remember something a few posts ago about some "in the day" failures. Perhaps it had something to do with the lack of what you call leaders, which I'm guessing are elements like tin or copper that flow out ahead of the big guns, is this what you are saying?

dave

[Freddy]

Dave, I didn't think too much about publishing a paper, and there was non-disclosure issues on some of the projects.

Georgine and I have written a draft paper and will put it up on the website for everyone to glean though.

The short version is size of elements -they must be micro fine and some are in an oxide form, not just metal powder.

The trick is not to commute the parent alloy but to seal it as if it was plated, plating first is the most common method in industry.
The trick is also to not upset the eutectics of the filler but to enhance them.

So the combination of chemical and metal leader elements creates a reverse step without using two rods to lead.

I am still working on formulas that are aimed at industry use and most just require that industry to alter the methods they use.
The small hands on testing we have done opened up a number of possibles.
The current mix is on the money, but if I find anything it goes right back to Beta and the trash can or production

[steve garro]

thanks allot for the info, Freddie! l - Garro.

[Clockwork]

100_4164_1.jpg

http://www.clockworkbikes.com/track_xcr_1.html

This is the the bike I recently made with Columbus XCr and Fillet Pro. The stem and other various parts are made out of 316 stainless. Using Fillet Pro and SS light flux was an absolute dream. I would have not been able to make this bike with out it. Upon receiving the Fillet pro and SS light, I mitered 3 pieces of 1.25" x .028" 304 stainless to do some practice fillets. The first 2 went so well I didn't even bother with the third. Plenty of penetration was achieved and I was able to make the tubes fail before the joint deformed at all.

Another plus is that 56 will wet-out on top of Fillet Pro before the Fillet Pro melts. This was a pleasant surprise when I brazed the pinch barrels on the stem clamp.

I just rode this bike for the first time yesterday--pretty stiff. I won't be shy about reporting any future failures if they occur.

Thanks, Joel

[marten]

Failures? The bane of our existence..
The only one I know about, as it was my personal ride, was a down tube failure at the BB, were I had tacked the seat first with the MIG (on the lowest setting) and then finished with silver fillet. After, oh 6 months of use, the down tube literally blew out a chunk of steel. I'll add a pic, it's a lousy pic but you see the result... My conclusion is don't MIG Columbus Spirit, even though the factory says it'll handle the heat.. I don't recall the down tube being MIG tacked as I generally just lay the mitered tube unsupported into the assembly then braze, so there should not have been any pre-load on the tube.

A mig weld cools down very rapidly, and the shrinkage sets up a lot of stress. Put the stresses generated by riding on top of that and you've got a road to failure

[Tommy Nash]

100_4164_1.jpg

http://www.clockworkbikes.com/track_xcr_1.html

This is the the bike I recently made with Columbus XCr and Fillet Pro. The stem and other various parts are made out of 316 stainless. Using Fillet Pro and SS light flux was an absolute dream. I would have not been able to make this bike with out it. Upon receiving the Fillet pro and SS light, I mitered 3 pieces of 1.25" x .028" 304 stainless to do some practice fillets. The first 2 went so well I didn't even bother with the third. Plenty of penetration was achieved and I was able to make the tubes fail before the joint deformed at all.

Another plus is that 56 will wet-out on top of Fillet Pro before the Fillet Pro melts. This was a pleasant surprise when I brazed the pinch barrels on the stem clamp.

I just rode this bike for the first time yesterday--pretty stiff. I won't be shy about reporting any future failures if they occur.

Thanks, Joel

Beautiful! The stuff is really nice to work with, I've done a mess of destructive tests on Fillet Pro and had the same results, the tubes don't stand a chance!. I'm halfway through a fully FP MTB for my self, but I have to get all the pesky customer builds out of the way first.

Chris Bishop, another Baltimore cat, has done some really great stuff with Fillet Pro aswell, worth looking into.

Cheers,

[Freddy]

Thanks you guys !
I worked a long time on Fillet Pro before it was released. all issues that did come up from 2001 to now have been factored in.
As it is now it really is pretty off the charts good.

Steve Garro would like future builds with this and or anything photographed right after brazing and fresh out of the soak tank.
This gives this topic some visual input, even if visual can't show the whole issue, at least it gives some idea?

Oh? and about bond quality and heating?, I left out that A45N takes more heat to create a solid bond and flow than Fillet Pro, quite a bit more heat in degrees total to finish. I have to guess, I didn't measure that, but more than 100 F.

I am working on my website this weekend and hope it will be at least part way up again by tonight.

You know that Renold Yip made that cute Mixte the yellow one and won an award at Nahbs and that entire bike was built with Fillet Pro, and it is of course steel, not SS.

I have worked most of my life to promote cycling and framebuilding and now it looks like I did something afterall?
Thanks all !

[steve garro]

!
.

Steve Garro would like future builds with this and or anything photographed right after brazing and fresh out of the soak tank.
This gives this topic some visual input, even if visual can't show the whole issue, at least it gives some idea?

all ine are - Garro.

[WadePatton]

this seems to be the right place for this inquiry.

i know steve and others use a gasfluxer and turn out beautiful work. does the gasfluxer change the joinery process or simply lend to efficiency by speeding the process along (with less brushing on/soaking off).

and anybody have an aufhauser price list?

and why doesn't freddie's post counter work?

[e-RICHIE]

this seems to be the right place for this inquiry.

i know steve and others use a gasfluxer and turn out beautiful work. does the gasfluxer change the joinery process or simply lend to efficiency by speeding the process along (with less brushing on/soaking off).

and anybody have an aufhauser price list?

and why doesn't freddie's post counter work?

gasfluxers are a crutch that most domestic framebuilders learn to walk with atmo.
it's use has no effect on how much paste flux is needed.
it's only advantage is that it leaves the surface a wee bit cleaner when done, and
there's less charred edges, all things being equal. all things are never equal, though.
if you have a unit installed, it's harder to learn what really happens when flux does
what it's there to do. a skilled operator should have the same net results regardless
of whether flux is coming through the hose.