How To: Gluing CX Tubulars / Not tonight honey, I've got a Mastik 1 headache

[Britishbane]

New rim? Different rim material than the other sets?

No idea how to get the dirt off the glue on the tire. I used a stiff brush prior to my last gluing of a previousl used tire, it's holding thus far

[BSUdude]

Definitely a bond issue, my guess would be on the basetape side since it was a reglued tire and you started with a clean rim following the Zanc method.

Did you use the broom trick? Roll the tire with all your weight on it? Pump it up to 60psi to set overnight?

Sucks man. Good luck with the tire, but given it was already reglued and the failed bond is likely the tires fault, I think it's going to be hard to clean, reglue, and get a better bond now that it's so dirty. Maybe someone out there knows some Fast Tack voodoo as a last ditch effort.

New Challenge Limus Tire 7 x 33 Black Brown Tubular | eBay

$80 for some peace of mind and not having to f with cleaning the tire.

[s_curran]

Definitely a bond issue, my guess would be on the basetape side since it was a reglued tire and you started with a clean rim following the Zanc method.

Did you use the broom trick? Roll the tire with all your weight on it? Pump it up to 60psi to set overnight?

Sucks man. Good luck with the tire, but given it was already reglued and the failed bond is likely the tires fault, I think it's going to be hard to clean, reglue, and get a better bond now that it's so dirty. Maybe someone out there knows some Fast Tack voodoo as a last ditch effort.

New Challenge Limus Tire 7 x 33 Black Brown Tubular | eBay

$80 for some peace of mind and not having to f with cleaning the tire.

It was a brand new tire, which seems strange to me. Should I be doing anything to prep my challenge base tape for glue?

This is mostly moot now, as I broke the canti frame I had, I'm going to try re gluing, they probably will only see B bike use now anyways.

[Too Tall]

S_curran. Hopefully I am following your story correctly. The rim is completely contaminated with dirt. This is unfortunate but is what It is.....toast. You must remove the old glue and filth.
Yes, the new tire bartape will need prep....we can talk at that point.

[s_curran]

S_curran. Hopefully I am following your story correctly. The rim is completely contaminated with dirt. This is unfortunate but is what It is.....toast. You must remove the old glue and filth.
Yes, the new tire bartape will need prep....we can talk at that point.

Well now I am asking about new tires, I have some others I am glueing this week. Brand new challenge ones, should I sand the basetape? clean it with acetone? I know you do with Clement tires, but hadnt heard I need to with challenge.

The contaminated wheel is what it is, Im going to strip it down, clean to the metal again, try to clean the tire and re glue.

I know this is just a part of cross, but its sure frustrating me right now. I even bought a used wheelset, carbon, DT swiss. Had old conti glue on it so I used a low temp heat gun to try and get it off. Instantly noticed few small ripples forming in the carbon (This is a disc wheelset). This was really low heat, because I was nervous to begin with, it still took a lot of strength to get the glue off. Now i've got figure out another way. Looks like there will be a lot of acetone in the air tonight.

[s_curran]

Well now I am asking about new tires, I have some others I am glueing this week. Brand new challenge ones, should I sand the basetape? clean it with acetone? I know you do with Clement tires, but hadnt heard I need to with challenge.

The contaminated wheel is what it is, Im going to strip it down, clean to the metal again, try to clean the tire and re glue.

I know this is just a part of cross, but its sure frustrating me right now. I even bought a used wheelset, carbon, DT swiss. Had old conti glue on it so I used a low temp heat gun to try and get it off. Instantly noticed few small ripples forming in the carbon (This is a disc wheelset). This was really low heat, because I was nervous to begin with, it still took a lot of strength to get the glue off. Now i've got figure out another way. Looks like there will be a lot of acetone in the air tonight.

Update, be carefull with your Carbon folks, DT swiss says i'm ok, but these rims seem highly susceptible to heat damage. They say they've seen melted rims from car exhaust.

[BSUdude]

Hmm. Interesting. I have used a heat gun for glue removal on some older carbon Ritchey tubulars (which I hear are rebranded 404s) and the rim was not affected at all visually at least. Low heat, only hitting the rim enough to get the glue soft to wipe off. I was working with Mastik though, so not sure if/how it behaves differently than conti w/regards to removal via heat gun.

I ask about the pumping up and rolling the tire on a broom because of a personal experience. Someone a few pages earlier in this thread actually recommended NOT airing up tires when they sit and dry for some weird reason. Anyway, I tried it last year and the bond was crap. Rolled a tire in the first turn of a race. I will never do that again. Terrible advice IME.

As far as basetape prep goes I've never done anything to clean new basetape. Are you gluing in the same environment as you have previously had success in? No excessive moisture, dust, or low temperatures?

[chiasticon]

Hmm. Interesting. I have used a heat gun for glue removal on some older carbon Ritchey tubulars (which I hear are rebranded 404s) and the rim was not affected at all visually at least. Low heat, only hitting the rim enough to get the glue soft to wipe off. I was working with Mastik though, so not sure if/how it behaves differently than conti w/regards to removal via heat gun.

I ask about the pumping up and rolling the tire on a broom because of a personal experience. Someone a few pages earlier in this thread actually recommended NOT airing up tires when they sit and dry for some weird reason. Anyway, I tried it last year and the bond was crap. Rolled a tire in the first turn of a race. I will never do that again. Terrible advice IME.

I've used low heat on carbon before too, with no issues so far. not sure I'd do it if I'd paid over 2k for the wheels or something, but I also wouldn't be racing cx on such wheels either... cheap-ish, used, out-of-warranty carbon I've tried it on though; and like you said, just enough to wipe the big chunks of glue off. I believe I searched here before trying it, and found a few people saying they'd done it, with no issues.

not airing up tires when they sit to dry... the one place I saw this mentioned was in butter's guide to gluing tubulars. and he pretty much says that for handmade tubs, you should wait for an hour or so to pump it up. says that if you get it to 60ish immediately, they have a tendency to curl inward/over. not 100% sure I agree though, as by the time I'm satisfied with alignment, the tires aren't moving too easily.

[fredtc]

I have just glued a set of Dugast Rhinos with Effetto Mariposa's Carogna tape, which was possibly even easier than fitting inner tubes, and also possibly heresy. however, if they stay on, I don't really care. I'll update this when (if) I roll one on the first corner.

[s_curran]

I always use the broom, I think its one of the most important parts. I'm going to go with bad glue/riding too early/ and maybe too much moisture in the air, just a bad combination I think. I've already glued 4 more, and am having no issues. Drying upstairs this time though, with new glue. It almost seem like he reaction with the belgian tape on the bad one never happened.

I've used low heat on carbon before too, with no issues so far. not sure I'd do it if I'd paid over 2k for the wheels or something, but I also wouldn't be racing cx on such wheels either... cheap-ish, used, out-of-warranty carbon I've tried it on though; and like you said, just enough to wipe the big chunks of glue off. I believe I searched here before trying it, and found a few people saying they'd done it, with no issues.

not airing up tires when they sit to dry... the one place I saw this mentioned was in butter's guide to gluing tubulars. and he pretty much says that for handmade tubs, you should wait for an hour or so to pump it up. says that if you get it to 60ish immediately, they have a tendency to curl inward/over. not 100% sure I agree though, as by the time I'm satisfied with alignment, the tires aren't moving too easily.

These rims are, well way too nice for me. DT Swiss 29er XC tubulars. Really light, I think they retailed for 3500 (I paid less than a fifth of that).

[Too Tall]

I can't for the life of me recall if those particular tires have any latex coating on the basetape? If they do you know the drill, break it up so that glue can soak thru to the basetape. If not, use two very stingy coats of glue to prep. the tape. I like to use a clean toothbrush to scrub the glue into the basetape.

[s_curran]

So, I think this is dependant on how much glue you use, but Ive narrowed it down to just riding to close to mounting. For the amount of glue I use, 24 hours isnt enough. I could try less glue, but 48 hours is looks like the number for me. I mounted a tire on thursday morning, raced it saturday afternoon, it held fine, but was really soft in there. The next day it was on there 100% solid, I know this because it felt better and looked better, but also because I flatted that day, and tried to take it off, ugh. I was even running high pressures, hit a sharp rock that cut through the tread.

I can't for the life of me recall if those particular tires have any latex coating on the basetape? If they do you know the drill, break it up so that glue can soak thru to the basetape. If not, use two very stingy coats of glue to prep. the tape. I like to use a clean toothbrush to scrub the glue into the basetape.

It looks like they dont, but good to know, I dont know if I had done it properly for my last clement tires.

[BSUdude]

Someone in the industry could probably break it down, but the bond may reach 75% of its strength in 24 hours but take several more days to get to 100% strength (numbers are wild guesses for discussions's sake). I know I can distinctly smell mastik when I air up/deflate tires within about a week of gluing, then after that it goes away. So something is still curing even after the oft-preached 24 hour window. Also dependent on drying conditions I'm sure.

I'm also of the belief that airing up the tire directly after mounting can generate a bit of self-centering of the tire, at least if you are working with naturally straight manufactured tubulars like challenge/clement/vittoria. The glue is quite sticky but I believe the tire has a tendency to work out small wobbles a little bit over the 24 hour window before the glue is completely set. A couple times I've had glue jobs with maybe a couple small tread wiggles laterally when I hang the tire up, then I spin it the next day and I'm surprised at how straight the tread is. Just anecdotal.

[Too Tall]

100% on airing the tire up hard immed. after installation. Put it on a truing stand and get any remaining wobbles out, that works.

S_curran Depends on humidity and temps. I've never needed more than 24 hrs. between coats. Everyone develops their own drill for this and you are on the right track.

Kudos.

[s_curran]

New issue: This may be specific to wide MTB tubular rims (very flat gluing surface), I haven't had this happen to anything else. be careful to put only a very little bit of air in the tire until it has really stuck. I just noticed my once decently straight tire had totally "turned" while drying, unacceptable to the point if I was riding straight, I would be riding on the side knobs. Looks like I've got a new job to do tonight.

When you guys describe snapping the tire back into place, what do you mean? just flinging it around like a whip? I've been trying to do this every time, so I dont think its this, but was wondering if there was a better way.

Lastly, my tires are really stuck now, i've got the method down really well.

[fredtc]

To update this - they've stayed on over 5 races, some muddy and down to 20psi. No complaints at all

[gordosburritos]

incredible post

[Too Tall]

Boss if the tire is turned as you describe you have at some point over inflated it when off the rim. The tire needs to look correct befor you install. If that happens for whatever reason you can get the innertube and casing back in synch again by manipulating the tire in your hands with lowish pressure.

The snapping of the last bit of tubular onto the glued rim is a figure of speech. Once the tire is mostly on I flip it up so the last portion is pointed up than grab the tire, pull upwards very hard than let it snap into place.

New issue: This may be specific to wide MTB tubular rims (very flat gluing surface), I haven't had this happen to anything else. be careful to put only a very little bit of air in the tire until it has really stuck. I just noticed my once decently straight tire had totally "turned" while drying, unacceptable to the point if I was riding straight, I would be riding on the side knobs. Looks like I've got a new job to do tonight.

When you guys describe snapping the tire back into place, what do you mean? just flinging it around like a whip? I've been trying to do this every time, so I dont think its this, but was wondering if there was a better way.

Lastly, my tires are really stuck now, i've got the method down really well.

[jscott]

When I need to point people at this thread, I just tell them to google mastik one headache and take the first result.

Makes me miss the "I'm feeling lucky" button.