Steel tube choices for a big boy touring bike

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I posted this as a thread jack elsewhere, but I have decided starting its own thread would be better.

I have searched, please forgive me and redirect me if this is covered somewhere.

I'm a big dude, 6'4" 275#. I'm going to build a frame. Steel. Lugged.
Frame for myself comes first.
I want an all-rounder for long days in the saddle, bike-packing, some light touring.
Not a race bike (yet)
I don't want to be afraid to pull off the asphalt and head off road if the moment calls for it.
Weight is not my greatest concern. (if it were, I'd be at the gym and not on the couch)
I want everything of course: comfort, sure-footedness, response.


One of our compatriots noted that I would not want to go below.9/.6/.9
35DT, 31.8ST & TT, .9/.6/.9. is the recommendation he gave.

I am soliciting all of your opinions. I am interested in why you would choose what. I'm choosing lugged steel because it is my first.

Tell me what works. Tell me what doesn't.

Thank you

[JonoChurch]

You are pretty restricted for tubesets by building with lugs, ie a lugset with a 35mm will always use a 31.8mm top tube and so on, so no option to mix and match a smaller TT or bigger DT etc.

I would have thought that tubeset was up to your needs but it will be interesting to see what others think

[Will Neide]

For a big dude building his first frame, I don't see how you can wrong with some straight gauge 4130.

There's also Supertherm.

[alexstar]

I think you should call David Kirk. His JKS X could work pretty well for you.

Kirk Frameworks Custom Bicycles

[blasdelf]

I think you should call David Kirk. His JKS X could work pretty well for you.

Kirk Frameworks Custom Bicycles

1) He wants to build a frame

2) Kirk is building those in 953, of which the thickest gauge you can get is .7/.5/.7 for the DOS DT (and it gets down to 0.35mm)

[blasdelf]

One of our compatriots noted that I would not want to go below.9/.6/.9
35DT, 31.8ST & TT, .9/.6/.9. is the recommendation he gave.

that's pretty wild overkill atmo unless you're using it as a hardcore mountain bike — there is such a thing as a too-stiff front end especially for "long days in the saddle", going with thick tubes AND double oversized ones could easily take it too far

OX Platinum is the same material as Supertherm but drawn thinner and with more size options, you could do DOS in 7/4/7 or 8/5/8, and with the super alloy that 0.4mm wall has the same dent resistance as a 0.6mm wall in plain 4130


the thing I would be much more worried about is getting the biggest baddest chainstays you can

and it's going to be hard with the limitations of the sockets on the bb shell, keeping the chainstays reasonably short, getting the STA slack enough so you can use a Thomson post, and still having enough tire clearance for something reasonably rad (you'll want to be able to fit a BG Rock n' Road)

[MiWi]

One of our compatriots noted that I would not want to go below.9/.6/.9
35DT, 31.8ST & TT, .9/.6/.9. is the recommendation he gave.

I´d say go for it.

I´m a big guy too (6'4", 220pound)
I built myself a Commuter / Monstercross / Touringbike with exactly that kind of tube dimensions (True Temper Verus).
I chose it for stiffnes when the bike is in travelling mode. I wouldn´t even hesitate to go for a straight gauge 0.9mm DT.
I´d never chose less stiff tubing.
For my taste it is not to stiff at all, just right, especially when fully packed for touring (25kg load).
Felt really stiff and stable descending the scottish highlands with 40mph.
No problem or discomfort beeing in the saddle 14 days in a row , 10 hours a day.

[Andrew R Stewart]

It's hard to build a touring frame that's too stiff, like a tandem too. Bikes feel vastly different with 50-75lbs of gear then when unloaded. Watching one's front drop outs flex through a few cms during bumps and braking (with a 1" steerer) is disconcerting. Make sure the steerer/crown is solid too. Andy.

[echelon_john]

He asked about a touring bike he can also take off road. To me, that means racks & panniers. Assuming even a lightish full touring load (30lbs+/- total) that still gives a gross vehicle weight, bike, rider and gear, of +/-325 pounds. .7/.4/.7 tubing makes no sense in this application, even before you consider the fact that this guy is a newbie builder. (no offense meant to the O.P., just the fact)

Also, for a 6'4" guy's touring bike, short chainstays aren't a priority. Even if he has a size 11 foot, which would be small for that height, he'll need some distance back there to fit panniers without heel strike. I just built a touring frame for myself (size 48-49 shoe) with 46cm chainstays. Good pannier clearance, good tire clearance, good chainring clearance, and accommodates a slack (71 degree) seat tube angle, which is likely the ballpark the O.P. will be in as well.

I tell folks who ask about building bikes for larger folks (I'm 6'6", 250) that, assuming they weigh 175 pounds, they should imagine riding with 2 forty pound bags of dog food strapped on their bike, one on the saddle and one on the handlebars. OS tubing and thicker walls, especially in the top and down tubes, make all the difference in ensuring the bike is stiff enough to avoid speed shimmy and noodly steering. Comfort comes from tire air volume and inflation pressure; not an overly thin top tube.

[Curt Goodrich]

He asked about a touring bike he can also take off road. To me, that means racks & panniers. Assuming even a lightish full touring load (30lbs+/- total) that still gives a gross vehicle weight, bike, rider and gear, of +/-325 pounds. .7/.4/.7 tubing makes no sense in this application, even before you consider the fact that this guy is a newbie builder. (no offense meant to the O.P., just the fact)

Also, for a 6'4" guy's touring bike, short chainstays aren't a priority. Even if he has a size 11 foot, which would be small for that height, he'll need some distance back there to fit panniers without heel strike. I just built a touring frame for myself (size 48-49 shoe) with 46cm chainstays. Good pannier clearance, good tire clearance, good chainring clearance, and accommodates a slack (71 degree) seat tube angle, which is likely the ballpark the O.P. will be in as well.

I tell folks who ask about building bikes for larger folks (I'm 6'6", 250) that, assuming they weigh 175 pounds, they should imagine riding with 2 forty pound bags of dog food strapped on their bike, one on the saddle and one on the handlebars. OS tubing and thicker walls, especially in the top and down tubes, make all the difference in ensuring the bike is stiff enough to avoid speed shimmy and noodly steering. Comfort comes from tire air volume and inflation pressure; not an overly thin top tube.

I agree with most of the quote and want to emphasize this is the person's first frame. Thicker, non-heat treated tubes will be more forgiving during the build process. Too often internet frame builders give advice, well meaning or not, that's too egocentric and lack the experience of building bikes for customers other than themselves. To the OP- this is your first frame. Do your best knowing this bike will be objectively not great due to inexperience and subjectively it will be wonderful! Build it assuming you'll build more than this one. This will reduce the urge to turn this bike into a "Swiss Army knife" bike. Design it for what you'll be doing 80% of the time. You're a big person with intentions of rough riding, I like the idea of overbuilding too. Double oversize 9-6-9 sounds reasonable. Worst case scenario, it's too stiff and you feel compelled to build another. Seems like a win win situation.

[afwalker]

Lugged big bike these come to mind:
SaxMax lugs: Richard Sachs Framebuilding Material | RICHARD SACHS CYCLES PegioRichie tubing also
or
Llewellyn XLS or XLH for oos: http://www.llewellynbikes.com/HTML/f...ICE%20LIST.pdf
Chainstays maybe the Deda CX have some room for touring tires: BikeLugs.com
those or the road S bend. There are seatstays to match there also. You could do a straight guage 4130 seatstay for a stiffer ride.

Can you show a drawing of the frame you're planning?
bikecad free version for a start if you don't already have a bike software.

cheers
andy walker
andywalker.info

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Thank you all for your replies.
This is what the internet is for.
Lug sizes, slack angle, big feet, 325# combined weight and most of all first build. Whew!
I think the most important bit for me to take from this right now is the caution about building a swiss army bike.
Nimble as a gazelle and strong like a mastodon roadracelighttouringsingletrackrandorambo is a lofty goal.
Thank you for helping me keep it real.
I really do want something I can cruise around on on the street and hop off onto the trails and ride hard when I want to with out fear of it breaking.
While my long term goal is bikepacking, I know most of the riding will be in town on street and on urban trails.
I'm starting to get the picture in my head.

How much can I "tweak" lug angle?

I did a first draft in BikeCad and it looks like, well, a bicycle.
It looks like a fun bike.
And if it is just to heavy/strong/meaty for anything but off road, then so be it. I'll put giant tires on it, head out to the woods and try to break it.
And build another.

First draft here andre | www.bikecad.ca
Have a look and tell me what you think. Don't hold back

And thank you all again for all of your comments. I am learning a lot.

[blasdelf]

I want an all-rounder for long days in the saddle, bike-packing, some light touring.

I want everything of course: comfort, sure-footedness, response.

everyone else in this thread is somehow interpreting this to mean "heavy loaded touring bike"

the Surly Long Haul Trucker is the stiffest turdliest example you can get off the shelf, and it's 'only' 31.8 9/6/9 TT & DT with a 28.6 bulged ST — if the OP isn't already well familiar with how it rides, it would behoove him to do some test rides before investing his time and energy in building an even beefier version

[success]

everyone else in this thread is somehow interpreting this to mean "heavy loaded touring bike"

the Surly Long Haul Trucker is the stiffest turdliest example you can get off the shelf, and it's 'only' 31.8 9/6/9 TT & DT with a 28.6 bulged ST — if the OP isn't already well familiar with how it rides, it would behoove him to do some test rides before investing his time and energy in building an even beefier version

Thank you. point well taken. and no, I haven't ridden it, nor many modern bikes. I have been riding my poorly fitting 40 year old Motobecane :)
I have been looking hard at the AllCity Spacehorse which I think falls into this category (stiff and turdly) (all rounder).
I plan on doing some test riding this weekend. And I still want to build something that will bear my bear a**.

I am discovering my mission is not to re-invent the wheel. Just build one.

[blasdelf]

First draft here andre | www.bikecad.ca
Have a look and tell me what you think. Don't hold back

It's pretty much a clusterfuck atmo (much of that is prob residual from only making a few changes to the starting template)


Is your saddle height really only 77.4cm? That would mean you have pretty short legs for being 6'4" and a long torso/neck/etc.

Trying to get the bars level with the saddle AND having minimal threadless spacers AND minimal slope just doesn't work out — no standover for rough stuff use and the hugely expanded frame brings shimmy right to the forefront


The TT Length situation is a complete disaster full stop

The smallest 46cm Space Horse is AN INCH longer in reach than what you drew, bikes just don't get that choked up without everything going completely to shit, especially at that height


Here's my de-derpified version of your drawing: andre | www.bikecad.ca

You had it using a medium-reach road fork, I switched it to a standard cross fork (+2cm), dropped the TT while adding 3cm of spacers

I lengthened the front end of the bike to what I consider the minimum for someone your height outside of a crit bike, the front-center is 2cm longer but the actual cockpit is 4.6cm longer

I swapped the 32mm tires for 42mm (Resist Nomad 45s or Bruce Gordon Rock n' Road) and lowered the BB by 1cm

[blasdelf]

Thank you. point well taken. and no, I haven't ridden it, nor many modern bikes. I have been riding my poorly fitting 40 year old Motobecane :)
I have been looking hard at the AllCity Spacehorse which I think falls into this category (stiff and turdly) (all rounder).
I plan on doing some test riding this weekend. And I still want to build something that will bear my bear a**.

it would probably be greatly to your benefit to buy yourself one of those cheap QBP framesets first

get a Pacer or Spacehorse or LHT and figure out your fit on a modern bike

do some bikepacking adventures on it and figure out what gear works for you

then with all that self-knowledge, build yourself a way classier bike with lugs

[afwalker]

1384327512243.png
Few more numbers to help out. TT short, wheelbase short?
Big boy lightly loaded touring. Stiffen up the downtube .9.6.9 or straight guage, stiffen the seatstays maybe straight guage and you'll have a stout bike.
cheers
andy walker

[RickM]

Okay..you should really be listening to the Curt Goodriches of the world if they take the time to offer you guidance...but here are links to geometry configs for two bikes that would fit your stated criteria, I think. Neither model is currently in production, but having ridden both models I can say that they fit the broad category(s) you seem to be desiring to incorporate into your prospective design. BTW...I sorta' agree w/ blasdelf..get a POS "modern" bike and ride it for awhile so you can get things sorted out. You can transfer the bits on to your new frame.

http://waterfordbikes.com/w/bikes/le...1eb388fe05d5c1

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/riven...isgeometry.pdf

[success]

Thank you all again.
This is the discussion I was I was hoping for.

blasdelf:
My inseam calc. was wrong. Saddle height should be 807mm.
I think I get what you are saying about the bike getting choked up, with that height and short wheelbase I could see it getting squirrely.
your de-derpification makes total sense. tell me more about the HT&ST angles, is there a big difference in 71 and 72 degrees? what happens?


I am listening to all of you.

I talked to my guy at my LBS and we are going to put together a Spacehorse.

I will continue this discussion tho. I am going to build a frame at some point because I want to.
Maybe by that time I will have the knowledge to build a better mousetrap. I will at least have the knowledge to build a trap that will catch mice.

[success]

De derped, with corrected seat height and angles kicked back 1 degree (just for the sake of expanding my knowledge)
andre II | www.bikecad.ca