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Thread: Tig Steel from zero

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    Default Tig Steel from zero

    Hi all.

    When I begun with the framebuilding learning process, I found that was not that easy to find documentation on how to Tig weld steel frames, being most of it related with steel/oxy-acetylene or titanium/tig.

    So, even if I'm for sure not the best to teach anything, at least I hope this small "manual" would be helpful to anyone who's interested in knowing about Tig welded steel frames, wich should not be too different to fillet brazing, for example, but there're always small details...

    Trying to be as detailed as possible, it will take quite long so most likely I'll have to do it by chapters, will try my best not to take too long time between them ;)

    I'll just get into the actual process, going over the frame design as I think this is another chapter wich is pretty well documented in mahy other posts/places/books and not necessarily specific to TIG process.

    So, here we go with Chapter I: [Preparing/Mitering Seat tube vs BB shell]
    -First of all, (and assuming BB shell is already faced) we need to "scratch" or mark the two centerlines of the tube (I prefer scratching as will not fade away after some work on the tubes). This is big key as will allows as to check phasing and proper alignment and also will be a good help for placing braze-ons. First you mark one line, for example I do it by resting the tube on the alignment table and then sliding the marker all the way top-bottom. Once this first reference centerline is marked, you've to locate it's opposite, to do so I made small plastic square papers measuring half the circunference of the tube, one for each diameter of tube I use (28,6-31,7-35-38-42). So, you place this paper aligned with the already marked centerline and then mark the opposite centerline. They should be at same distance one each other (damn, I'm pretty bad explaining things!). And you should also mark a centerline on the BB Shell, this is much easier as you just need to find out the center (normally 34mm) and do a full circle around, again, I use the alignment table for so, resting the bb shell on the table and locating the marker at 34mm height.
    Here is a picture of one of the tube centerlines:
    1centerlines.jpg

    Once centerlines are done, it's time to place the tube on the vise for some saw/file action. Using a nice tube block makes a difference and I say this because I've used some v-blocks and when you tight the vise, then the round shape of the tube will ovalize, so when you're checking miter tightness during the process, this will not be accurate, as once you relief the tube from the vise, it's shape will be different to the one you checked on the vise... does it make any sense? I hope so... Anyway, having a nice and proper tube block will be helpful so you can tight properly the tube on the vise without any loss on the round shape. It will look something like that:
    2tube.jpg

    So, after a couple of saw cuts and some insistence with the file, you'll begin having the fishmouth shape you're looking for, something like:
    3miter.jpg

    To know when you should end this process, you need to check the join is in phase and square. To know if it's in phase you just need to check that both centerlines on the tube are matching the centerline of the BB Shell, at both sides! First times will be kind of try and go, but after some practice it's pretty straight forward and easy to manage. Here is a picture of one of the sides with centerlines aligned (the other side should be at the very same situation):
    4phase.jpg

    The other part on the deal, is to check BB and ST are in good angle, this case is 90º, so just need a precision square so to check how it looks. Depending on where the line goes you'll need to file one side more than the other, till you reach someting like this:
    5square.jpg

    So, pretty much miter is done for the Seat tube, just need a bit of preparation before tacking. So first of all we sandpaper all the area, both outside and inside, and edges as well, to create the smoothest and cleanest possible scenario (specially important if some paint or oil is inside the tube). Important to keep the centerlines visible enough (do not sandpaper too hard!). Once we've sandpaper all, we can proceed to "broom" the inside of the tube so to take away any metal rest of the saw/file/sandpaper process:
    6broom.jpg

    Now that we have the tube nice and tidy, we clean it with some alcohol and make sure not to touch it from now with bare hands, just some cotton gloves and not letting the tube touch any dirt areas.:
    7clean.jpg

    Now we're ready for some fire! Just time to place the Seat tube and bottom bracket shell on the Jig for tacking. Make sure that Seat tube and BB shell are located according to the centerlines and without any "strange" forces, I mean that both pieces should rest one each other nicely and naturally, if miter is properly done then no gaps or the like would be around, and they'll match easily. If centerlines are phased, then seat tube will be dying straight on the bb shell. All those details will make a huge difference both on welding easiness and future alignment. So, we have all ready for tacking:
    8jig.jpg

    Before getting "hot", good to make sure all the related parts are as clean as possible. So time for cleaning the welding wire (I do use 1mm stainless steel 316L wire), specially if it's been resting for a while (dust ,etc). Also good time for sharpening and cleaning the tugnsten and put a brand new cotton glove cover to use on the left hand (well, the hand you'll use to feed the wire). Here is a picture of the dust cleaned from the wire:
    wire.jpg

    And this will be end of chapter 1 as by the time I get the TIG machine ready, photo camera's baterries went dead :o

    Man, that was a long text for such a small work! :o

    Cheers

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Thanks for doing this. I'm looking forward to reading more.

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Definately love your help here, I'm still learning to tig joints myself, getting better, but not good enough yet to start buying supplies. I'll be keeping a watch on this for sure.

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Awesome work. The only suggestion I have is to rethink your filler rod choice. 316L rod is really only suggested when welding 316 to 316.
    Mike Zanconato
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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Quote Originally Posted by zank View Post
    Awesome work. The only suggestion I have is to rethink your filler rod choice. 316L rod is really only suggested when welding 316 to 316.
    Thanks for pointing this out Zank, my writing mistake... I do use 306L, not 316L. I've also used 309L rod with good result.
    I can't edit the original messagge to avoid wrong advise to anyone...
    Thanks again

    Quote Originally Posted by triathloner View Post
    Definately love your help here, I'm still learning to tig joints myself, getting better, but not good enough yet to start buying supplies. I'll be keeping a watch on this for sure.
    The idea is to keep it as simple as possible, so all process will be by hand tools (saw, files, sandpaper, etc), except the proper Tig welding, sure.

    Anyway, I hope this thread is not considered as some kind of close area and anyone would feel free to point out any detail or maybe their own way to do same things differently or directly show any mistakes on my procedure.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Amaro Bikes; 03-04-2013 at 01:06 PM. Reason: I can't edit the first post for rod filler update :(

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Stupid me (flu and fever are great for that...), I'm actually using 316L, not 306, so will take your advise and go back to 309L

    Sorry about messing all up!

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    That's a good method for the centerline, I have something similar :)
    Cheap, durable, light: choose two.

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    316 and 309 would be pretty low on the desired filler rods. Topping the list would be 880T, ER70-S6, ER70-S2, maybe 312.

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    It's very interesting, many thanks, but I don't see how you make that with precision (perhaps a pic ?) :
    Quote Originally Posted by Amaro Bikes View Post
    Hi all.

    First you mark one line, for example I do it by resting the tube on the alignment table and then sliding the marker all the way top-bottom.

    Cheers

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Quote Originally Posted by RCP FAB View Post
    316 and 309 would be pretty low on the desired filler rods. Topping the list would be 880T, ER70-S6, ER70-S2, maybe 312.
    I'm quite surprised qith the general reaction about 316L. That was the specific recommendation of the man who teached me about framebuilding and tig, and after more than 1000 frames on his hands, he left framebuilding and get into 20 years of metalwork (what he does now), sI I did fully trusted him on that.

    Using 316L wire was some kinf of overkilling and putting too much quality on the filler material, sure, but always creating a better weld properties. And that was not just something tought by this man but also by the welding wire supplier and some other people with knowledge on the materials. Also having in mind we're speaking about Niobium alloys and not just "normal" carbon steels.

    On the other hand, I'm sure 880T is incredibly nice filler material, but not easy to get here in Europe, and I do always prefer to keep things as local as possible, both for logistic/cost reasons but also as some kind of ethical question.

    Anyway, as I thing this is quite an important question for anyone, I'll talk in depth with them today and come back with a more techy explanation on the why and how.

    Cheers

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Quote Originally Posted by sebaudet View Post
    It's very interesting, many thanks, but I don't see how you make that with precision (perhaps a pic ?) :
    I'll try to take a picture of it, although is difficult with just two hands ;) Anyway, as it's not helped by any mechanism or tool, precision is given by caution. First centerline is pretty easy and precise, just need to hold the tube on the flat surface so it will not move at all. Then you place the marker flat on the flat surface and "slide" it all the way on the tube. Then, you must locate the oposite on the tube, using the paper I made or any other system you prefer, and then you mark that exact point as the starting point of the opposite centerline. Now would be the tricky part to make it precise. So you locate again the tube on the flat surface, and turn it till the point of your marker matches the exact point of the opposite side beginning mark (will involve your face against the flat surface...) and once it's placed, mark the line.

    I don't know if it's a bit clearer now. Might sound as not very precise, but I can tell you if you do it right you'll end up with two straight lines at the very exact opposite of the tube diameter. Obviously you have to triple check and measure them so to be sure otherwise you'll end up doing unphased mitering and that's really bad for alignment

    Cheers

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    sorry for hijacking, but here goes my method:

    First, I roll the tube over a flat surface. I mark the spot with the biggest bend with a sharpie and decide if it will be pointing inwards or outwards the main triangle, but never to left or right.

    Second, I scratch the tube so it crosses the spot from step 1.
    I have an L-shaped aluminum-profile for this. It's dead-on straight and supercheap. It sits like this on the tube: ô
    thus ensuring the markings are in phase.

    tumblr_m2u6741aUq1qbz7lxo1_500.jpg

    Third, I print a crosshair with the right diameter on paper. The circle is actually a little bigger, so I can center the tube on it - If I see only black around the tube, it's centered.
    (there's already a little dirt from usage)

    tumblr_m2u5m3nd7Z1qbz7lxo1_500.jpg

    Fourth step, I take a very fine marker (0.05mm tip is available from Copic) and mark the phases. Even if this looks super simple, I believe this method is acurate to a very high level. I think only a calibrated coordinate measuring machine could compete with this. A lathe maybe, if the builder knows its tolerances.

    tumblr_m2u5v6nAxw1qbz7lxo1_500.jpg

    Last step, I attach my L-profile again to the markings I just made and scratch the tube.
    I now have four markings separated by 90°.

    Of course this is not necessary if you e.g. miter with a machine and use precision tube blocks.

    regards
    Cheap, durable, light: choose two.

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Just my 2 cents, I'm not trying to be rude, or start any internet battles.....

    312L is the common replacement for 880T on your side of the globe. I would not use 316L, but thats just me. I would also not recommend using 316L.

    880T
    Tensile Strength - 120ksi
    Elongation - 35%

    ER312L
    Tensile Strength - 103ksi
    Yield Strength - 85ksi
    Elongation - 40%

    ER70 S2/S6
    Tensile Strength - 80ksi
    Yield Strength - 65-70ksi
    Elongation - 30%

    ER316L (when welding 316 to 316)
    Tensile Strength - 80ksi
    Yield Strength - 55ksi
    Elongation - 36%

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    What are you guys using to scratch your guideline? Just an awl?

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    a scriber

    scriber.jpg

    avoid scratching the center section of butted tubes, though. It's hard to predict the notching effects of this on very thin tubes.
    Cheap, durable, light: choose two.

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Quote Originally Posted by RCP FAB View Post
    Just my 2 cents, I'm not trying to be rude, or start any internet battles.....

    312L is the common replacement for 880T on your side of the globe. I would not use 316L, but thats just me. I would also not recommend using 316L.

    880T
    Tensile Strength - 120ksi
    Elongation - 35%

    ER312L
    Tensile Strength - 103ksi
    Yield Strength - 85ksi
    Elongation - 40%

    ER70 S2/S6
    Tensile Strength - 80ksi
    Yield Strength - 65-70ksi
    Elongation - 30%

    ER316L (when welding 316 to 316)
    Tensile Strength - 80ksi
    Yield Strength - 55ksi
    Elongation - 36%
    The other piece of the conversation (aside from physical properties) is 316L and 308 have less than half the carbon of 312. The dilution of carbon in the puddle when using 316 or 308 can lead to higher levels martensite in the bead leading to a more brittle weld and the potential for internal cracking.
    Mike Zanconato
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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaro Bikes View Post
    First centerline is pretty easy and precise
    Take a set of 1/2 blocks on the table & rest the tube on them - draw a line on either side using the blocks as guides.
    Hold the tube down, rotate one block 90*, mark, repeat with the other one.
    - Garro.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
    www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Quote Originally Posted by druptight View Post
    What are you guys using to scratch your guideline? Just an awl?
    1mm sharpie.
    - Garro.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
    www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Quote Originally Posted by RCP FAB View Post
    Just my 2 cents, I'm not trying to be rude, or start any internet battles.....
    How could you ever be rude if sharing your experience? I very welcome any suggestion and comments, for sure, and I thank all of you for that. Maybe I seemed upset with my comment but I wasn't, just got surprised as I was recommended to use 316L and then all of a sudden seems to be pretty much a bad choice. But I'm glad to know all your opinions so to make the best choice possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by zank View Post
    The other piece of the conversation (aside from physical properties) is 316L and 308 have less than half the carbon of 312. The dilution of carbon in the puddle when using 316 or 308 can lead to higher levels martensite in the bead leading to a more brittle weld and the potential for internal cracking.
    As above, many thanks Zank. Afer reading all your figures, speaking yesterday with the former framebuilder, the welding rod supplier and a good friend of mine, I can't say it was a common agreement as some of them still thought of 316 as a good choice, but as none of them thought 312 was a bad one, I'll leave all my 316 parked for welding just stainless steel to stainless steel and have already bought a big package of ER312L 1mm rod so to make things best possible way.

    About using non-stainless rods, my first 20 frames or so were done that way and it was ok, but somehow I do prefer how the bead flows and feels with the stainless rod, apart from the psychological thing (entirely subjective to me) that weld will be better on many aspects (rust, elasticiy, etc) and last but not least, the average look of the weld is more aesthetic.

    Cheers

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    Default Re: Tig Steel from zero

    Quote Originally Posted by cfrisia View Post
    sorry for hijacking...
    No sorry at all!! Thanks for sharing your techniques.

    In fact I hope anyone would feel free to give their word about anything, either about different ways of ding same things, or as happened with the rods, suggestions or pointing out things that might be wrong. The idea is trying to make the post as some kind of complete guide to build a steel frame with a tig welding perspective, step by step.

    Cheers

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