Please help me to identify my frame

[Seadog]

I bought this frame as a Viner, but I'm starting to have my doubts. No stars or crosses on the lugs or BB.
Can anyone tell me what it is please?
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[Andrew R Stewart]

No idea but the frame looks pretty low cost in a few details. like the chain stay cable stop reminding me of a cheap production Euro bike's stop. The BB cable loops seem to be an after thought, although very much how I do them:)

I wonder if this frame has had changes to it's braze one before the OP got it. Did the OP strip the paint? If so what was the prior paint job like? Did it look to be a factory job or a re spray? How much does it weigh (as an attempt to discern the tubing)? Andy.

[Michael Gordon]

Andy, I hear what you are saying about the details in the frame. My eye was drawn to how the chain and seat stays are finished at the dropouts.

However, I did find the following Viner pic at: View Single Frame

It shows a similar style and quality of finish.

viner.jpg

[edoz]

The brake bridge looks like it has an unfinished fillet around the hole.
I was going to suggest it might be an amateur frame, but the serial number looks like 103.

[duanedr]

The serial number struck me as well. Clearly someone with ambition and big plans if it's an amateur!

I think Andrew's point is the rear derailleur cable stop is completely different on the frame you know to be a Viner from the one you are trying to identify.

Also, the known Viner uses Campy dropouts while the unidentified uses Shimano.

[GrantM]

English or Italian threading in the BB? That chainstay cable stop is unusual! and the down tube
shifter mounts are really low. I'm totally taking a flyer guess and say it's modified, perhaps something
lower-end 70s that didn't have braze-ons.

If English threaded, given the Shimano drop-outs, it could be Belgian, Dutch, or some other european country.
It sure doesn't have any obvious clues as to the origin. Anything to identify the tubing might narrow things down.

Grant McLean

[steve garro]

It looks pretty hack………

That dropout has been filed hard and the brass is all over the place

- Garro.

[thollandpe]

I had a Viner Professional and it was pretty nice up close. Star-shaped and round cutouts in the lugs, Campagnolo 1010b dropouts, and an English-threaded BB. No fooling.

I don't think that's a Viner.

Todd Holland

[11.4]

I remember seeing (and riding) two different kinds of Viners. One had the star cutouts, Campy stay ends and fork tips, nice seat lug, nice paint job, etc. The other was like a $249 frame/forks with crappy assembly. It was a somewhat later vintage from the early Viners and had all the cheap moves you can see on this frame. I don't know whether Viner got in trouble along with a lot of the smaller Italian frame shops at the time and just did a cheap frame, or whether they had both a high and a low line. I've definitely seen some really cheap Viners as well as the beautiful classic ones.

[duanedr]

It looks pretty hack………

Ouch...I was thinking it looks like some of my work... heavy on the file and brass! I like to think of it not as 'hack' but as nascent talent that just hasn't fully developed yet.

The whole dropout thing with the serial number placed where it is just seems odd to me. could they have been replaced? where was serial number on the known viner? several makers (Merckx for one) introduced or licensed their names to lower priced lines as the 70's bike boom started to wane so, could be something like that.

[steve garro]

Ouch...I was thinking it looks like some of my work... heavy on the file and brass! I like to think of it not as 'hack' but as nascent talent that just hasn't fully developed yet.

Call it what ever makes you sleep at night, I reckon - on second look, I'm gonna say it's not that bad, but that someone moved the bridges up higher without much talent at doing so.

- Garro.

[hampco]

That dropout has been filed hard and the brass is all over the place

"Old-world craftsmanship" we called that back in our match (bicycle company) days.

[Moke]

Hampco and Garro speak the truth. I used to ride and shop with the Gus Betat crew in NO LA a long long time ago and had several Viner frames. They rode good and were sort of "crit" style frames. They didn't import much but the "pro" level bikes that all had Italian threads, star cutouts in BB, fork and lugs, and had pretty crappy paint. Unlike Garro, the Viner was the only frame I ever broke. We were winding up for a sprint and something just didn't feel right so I rolled in. I went to take the front wheel off and the left fork blade went clunk to the ground. Hmmm, that can't be good. I loved those bikes and the way they road, but the workmanship was much like Hampco mentioned.
As far as the original bike, I don't see anything on that bike to suggest a Viner frame. The Shimano dropout just don't seem right, and I have seen several naked Viners and I think even the Italian kids or import labor did a better job on the brass. Maybe it is a middle or lower end frame from Viner, but I think not.