Frame building in Australia

[autumn acid]

Hi all,

I am interested in frame building however I am a little lost as to where to start.

After reading a lot of posts here, I can't seem to put my finger on the first logical step. I don't have any experience and I thought that perhaps an apprenticeship might be a good start however by the sounds of it, working with other people in the industry is the exception and not the rule. Regardless, there is a rather small pool of builders here in Australia, particularly in Sydney, NSW.

Another idea was to board a plane and undertake a frame building course with UCI in Portland however it is a gamble, and an expensive gamble at that. (I would love to hear people's opinions on these frame building courses).

Can anybody lead me in the right direction?

[devlin]

Hey mate, I live in Brisbane and have been down the same thought path. In the end I decided the only way to get started was to 'get started'. Are you good with your hands? Can make stuff fairly easily? You can do it all with a hacksaw a few files and a torch setup. I short teh torch setup so my progress has stalled. There are a couple cheap tubsets on eBay from a place in South Australia, get one of those and the lugs he's selling and start playing with it. I decided it doesn't matter if this bike ends up being the wrong size or what ever. Set some dimension paramters and try and build to the initial design but don't get hung up on the accuracy of the result. The idea here is to figure out your process, get some time on the files and learn to braze. I used my mitre template and made the first cut right on the end of the tube. When I was finished with that. I cut it again with the hacksaw then filed again. It generally gave me about 4 practice mitres on the end of each tube.

In other words just get some raw material and start. Don't expect to ride the first frame.

[ABiCi]

I'm looking at heading to the states either later this year or early next year to do a course as my starting point, there aren't a whole lot of opportunities in Australia. One possibility local to you would be to get in touch with Tarn @ Primate down near Wollongong, who going by his blog has done a "build your own frame" course in the past,

[suzyj]

What sort of framebuilding are you keen on?

I reckon the best bet is just to buy tubes, lugs, tools, and go at it. There's plenty of good advice and even some bad advice to be had in places like this.

Also where in oz are you?

[autumn acid]

Hey mate, I live in Brisbane and have been down the same thought path. In the end I decided the only way to get started was to 'get started'. Are you good with your hands? Can make stuff fairly easily? You can do it all with a hacksaw a few files and a torch setup. I short teh torch setup so my progress has stalled. There are a couple cheap tubsets on eBay from a place in South Australia, get one of those and the lugs he's selling and start playing with it. I decided it doesn't matter if this bike ends up being the wrong size or what ever. Set some dimension paramters and try and build to the initial design but don't get hung up on the accuracy of the result. The idea here is to figure out your process, get some time on the files and learn to braze. I used my mitre template and made the first cut right on the end of the tube. When I was finished with that. I cut it again with the hacksaw then filed again. It generally gave me about 4 practice mitres on the end of each tube.

In other words just get some raw material and start. Don't expect to ride the first frame.

Hi mate, I am very good with my hands, however I need a bit of an idea as to which tools to use and how to use them. Even just a step by step book, or video tutorial or anything really. I have got nothing so far.

[autumn acid]

What sort of framebuilding are you keen on?

I reckon the best bet is just to buy tubes, lugs, tools, and go at it. There's plenty of good advice and even some bad advice to be had in places like this.

Also where in oz are you?

I am keen on both lugged and brazed frames.

As I said previously, I can buy all the equipment but I'll be left with all the gear and no idea! This is why I'm considering a class. Maybe another option would be to pay a builder to show me?

[progetto]

See if you can find a builder and ask if you can hang occasionally. Some will be obliging, some won't. If you get the nod, don't come empty handed, bring beer and pizza. If you were near me, I wouldn't have a problem showing you what I know.
Don't waste your money on a course (ATMO), practice cutting, filing, brazing in the comfort of your own garage, you won't need a lot of tools to make a rideable bike. The "search" function is your friend.
Bill

[autumn acid]

See if you can find a builder and ask if you can hang occasionally. Some will be obliging, some won't. If you get the nod, don't come empty handed, bring beer and pizza. If you were near me, I wouldn't have a problem showing you what I know.
Don't waste your money on a course (ATMO), practice cutting, filing, brazing in the comfort of your own garage, you won't need a lot of tools to make a rideable bike. The "search" function is your friend.
Bill

Thank you Bill.

Was wondering if anybody had some good links to read. There appears to be a plethora of information on the web. It would be great if I was pointed in the direction of a good and reputable resource.

[dbohemian]

It will go without saying that a person that runs courses would think that a course is a valuable endeavor. I wonder how many people felt that college was a waste of money or that seminars for continuing education were a waste of money.

The short of it is and we all know this that personal instruction is valuable and accelerates the learning curve. How much that is worth to you is a personal matter. It is not like a course gives you nothing, you do get a bike frame out of it and loads of practice materials even if the end result is that you do not enjoy framebuilding, that is a positive outcome.

I have trained about 6 people from Australia and I would be happy to put you in contact with some of them. I know, because they stay in touch that they are setting up their own shops and maybe they would be willing to help you? Please P.M me if you are interested.

The other thing I would like to mention and I know that Doug Fattic who also frequents this forum would feel the same is that the results that our students obtain as excellent. Much better on the average than a newb who even has a dozen or more frames under their belts, better I might add than some seasoned pros. The proof is in the results. Framebuilding truly cannot be learned in a vacuum and these forums are incredible but cannot impart hand eye coordination and the like. I always add that I am just a catalyst. We do not make framebuilders. We are just the beginning. You will have to do practice and practice some more but at the least you would know what to practice, how to diagnose your own issues and what you have to shoot for to be superlative.

P.S. I have a framebuilding scholarship open for summer 2014. Check it out on FB.

[Chauncey Matthews]

. Even just a step by step book, or video tutorial or anything really. .

Little Fish Bicycles

[Jake Rosenfeld]

There are gobs of things to read about framebuilding online. there is frameforum as well as MTBR framebuilders there used to be a super-duper awesome one but the owner/moderators tinfoil hat melted to his head one day and he burnt the place down. I don't even think you can read the archives anymore.
perhaps someone here can point you to the framebuilders list which is an email deal. I suggest you get some practice and understand what your questions are before you go there as the most basic of questions are rightfully met with 'use the search function' answer.

Read as much as you can, practice as much as you can and follow as much advice as you can. listen carefully to dave b and doug f when they chime in about what a class can offer you.

My advice to you is that most questions about framebuilding are just one or two attempts away from an answer. try something yourself first as even a mistake can yield information that you can use later.

Find someone to give you a brazing tutorial to get you started in the right direction, you can spend a long time futzing around creating bad habits for yourself . even an hour or two with the right person will invaluable.

good luck.
jake

[Rosko]

I've been to Sydney quite a few times (my wife is from there) and each time I manage to find some amazing cycling folks to hang with. Including one older fellow who has been building his whole long life and was more than happy to have someone to talk shop with. Just keep asking around at local bike shops, read as much as you can. Damn near everything is available on the interwebs. Just do your due diligence and the idea will start to take shape. But all that info won't be much good without some hands-on experience, if you can find someone to watch, offer to help out for free around the shop. You never know. Just keep asking around, go to events, go to practice at the velodrome, call every bike shop in the city... whatever you have to do.

[Mark Kelly]

Now is as good a time as any to talk about this.

The people who bought the old Mayday Hills asylum in Beechworth are setting it up as a centre for cycle tourism. They are also the people behind the Beechworth Grand Fondo so they are pretty serious about this.

I have floated the idea with them to set up a framebuilding course based there, with the teacher flying in from the US. It's easily accessible from Sydney and Melbourne and of course there's accommodation on site and it's a fantastic place to ride.

There are still a pile of details to be worked through, including how we set up the necessary infrastructure (jigs, torches, welders etc) and these things have a habit of taking time to sort out but an indication of likely interest might be something I can use to persuade them (I haven't had an answer yet).

I've asked a couple of well respected US based teachers of framebuilding (both participants on this board) and it looks as though it will work from that end.

It would be more expensive than the raw cost of a US based course due to the need to fund the teacher's travel and accommodation as well as salary, but cheaper than the actual cost of a US course when the student's travel and accommodation are taken into account.

[devlin]

Damn I really wish I didn't move to Brisbane at times. Well most of the time actually.

Mark, I am unsure if I would do the course. I hear what Doug and others say about having that guiding hand in person but I am confident once I get the torch in hand I'll be able to work it out pretty quickly. Would certainly have a serious look at it though.

[dbohemian]

Damn I really wish I didn't move to Brisbane at times. Well most of the time actually.

Mark, I am unsure if I would do the course. I hear what Doug and others say about having that guiding hand in person but I am confident once I get the torch in hand I'll be able to work it out pretty quickly. Would certainly have a serious look at it though.

Mr. Devlin. One of the things I point out in my course is that bicycle building is not about brazing, welding or the torch. I know you probably meant the whole megillah but peoples fascination with welding processes dumbfounds me. Bicycle building is not about brazing/welding. In fact it is the least of what we do and probably the easiest I will point out. When a builder spends lets say 20-30 hours constructing a frame but only 30 minutes brazing it you can see that it is a small part of what we do. Even poor brazing/welding holds a bike together well, so what makes up the rest of it?

It starts with proper design, customer fitting and tube selection. Mistakes made here just translate to a bicycle that doesn't work well for its intended purpose. Then there is the proper preparation, filing, mitering techniques, how to work with sub-assemblies, fixture design, working with measuring tools and frame alignment and how does brazing/welding work in conjunction to maintain frame alignment. How to finish properly and prepare for paint/finishing? How would one paint their own bicycles if they wanted? Like almost anything, conceptually its simple but the details add to the complexity.

For some people they are driven, they will even when faced with failure, slog through it and get it done. There are a number of people I have seen spend 5-10 years setting up a little shop, practicing and they make it happen. Maybe for others an educational experience like we offer just confirms that indeed they know they can craft a bike frame. That hurdle is completed and now they can get on with developing skill and a little workshop if they wish. For those that have aspirations to go pro, some have seriously re-thought their positions. I may have saved them boatloads of time and money by giving them the experience and information they needed.

Recently, I have been learning something completely new to me. I wish I had been able to get some professional instruction. I asked, I offered money and I could not find anyone. I could have circumvented nearly a year of trial and error in my estimation if I had been able to. To me and certainly the many people that visit learning institutions every year education its valuable.

[devlin]

I whole heartedly agree with what you have said and as you said I did mean the whole 'megillah'. I dont for one minute think Im going to be good at it in a couple frames and if I had the money and was close enough Id probably do a course. In the end I have to weigh up, do I do a course and then spend more time waiting to afford the tools. Sure Ill learn more and quicker in the course but then it will be ages before I can get the tools. For me Id rather get the tools and get stuck into. I have one frame waiting for heat and another in the planning stage. I want to wait till Ive finished that frame before I start cutting the next one so I can see how the heat affects what Ive done. Im hoping to get an oxy prop setup sorted within the next few weeks. Has taken me a long time to save for it.

Cheers mate.

[Michael Gordon]

I'm building frame number one. For me, I would love to take a two week, but for my wife and kids that is out of the question. I'd say take a class if you can. building without taking one is possible, but definitely has its limitations. That being said however, I'm doing this as a hobby and not for a living, so it really doesn't matter how long it takes me to build a frame. It is all about relaxation.

For on-line references, I have found the following on the internet in PDF form:

Proteus Frame Building Book
Talbot Frame Building Book
Tim Paterek's Frame Building Manual

By far, the best source of information I have found has been right here in the Frame Building forum. Even though lugged building has been around for years, the methods discussed on line are more up to date and pull from a much greater knowledge base. The books I listed above definitely have their limitations. One of the best things I have recently read in the forum about these books is how the Paterek manual can also be used under the leg of an un-level table. What I found most helpful from these books is that they are geared mostly toward hobbyist builders, who most likely don't have jigs. The examples in these books on how to build without jigs has been of the most help to me, while I pull more of my design, mitering, prep, brazing and finishing info from the forum.

Best of luck!

Mike Gordon

[fooch]

I'm in Melbourne and I've also been toying with the idea of learning to build frames...

I have been talking to Ewen Gellie, but he is too busy to do it at the moment, which is not good for learning to build frames, but good for him!

I've also been talking to Geoff Duke, and he seems interested.

The problem is that they are in Melbourne and you are in Brissy!

[devlin]

I've chatted with Ewen via email and have had quite a few phone and email conversations with Daryll McCulloch. They pretty much tell me the same things that you read here, but as Doug said having that guiding hand is a big help showing you the subtlties of the skills. I think we are at the point in Australia where the US was about 20(30?) years ago. Plenty of guys keen but with only a handful of pro builders around and no real tuition available. The advantage we have these days though is obviously this forum and a much better access to others sources of info. I think if someone offered a course it would be able sell out the first couple rounds a few times over then probably die down a little.

[Doug Fattic]

I’ll add my thoughts to Dave’s since the ratio of teachers to selfers isn’t in our favor in this thread. Whether to take a class or not depends on how good you want to be and how long you want to take to get there. I’ve taught framebuilding classes since 1976 so of course I have a strong bias. I’ll say it directly anyway. If you want to be really good you need good instruction. The best at any skill (music, sports) have had lots of training (and they still keep their coaches). It’s just that simple. The reality is those that teach themselves (which may be their only option because of limited resources) need to be happy taking more time to get more modest results. Here is my shortened list (really there are more!) of reasons to take a class:

1. It greatly reduces frustration. Avoid the confusion about exactly what to do (or whose advice to take) and get immediate correction when things start to go wrong.
2. It really shortens the learning curve.
3. A good instructor knows common rookie mistakes and how to avoid them. For example unthinkingly lowering the rod while watching the flame. Bad things happen when putting it back into position. Little mistakes combine to snowball into bigger ones. Start right to end right.
4. Brazing and filing are much easier to learn in person from an instructor. A picture of a scorched joint doesn’t tell which of the many possibilities went wrong.
5. It takes more than a demonstration to catch on to how braze. Don’t expect your observational skills and coordination to be so sharp you can just watch and copy. A lot happens fast. Good instruction breaks down all those little things going on simultaneously into understandable separate units.
5. Classes provide an organized and systematic presentation of lots of information. Hanging out at a pro shop isn’t the same.
6. Any approach you take to possibly make frames in the future for money (even if you keep your day job) will eventually be expensive. Teaching yourself by practicing lots and making enough “not-quite-right-yet” frames will add up.
7. Your beginning mistakes can last a long time hurting your reputation years after you’ve gotten a lot better (unless you can find them all again to cut them up).
8. A class gives you a competitive advantage over the beginning do-it-yourselfers. You know what to do while they are trying to figure it out. Add 3 Australians that have come to my class to Dave’s 6 that have started out right.
9. There actually are more reasons that I send to inquiries.

If your objective is only to make a “rideable bike” than there isn’t much need to take class. I have much higher goals for every student. At the end of class (I’ll abbreviate this list) they will have found their bicycle position and converted that into a custom frame design with appropriate materials. Their joints will be properly brazed (lugs will have clean shorelines without voids!) and frame alignment will be within a mm or so. They will know the tricks of filing so their frames look good. Some of them in a 3 week class will also have painted their frames. I’ll post a couple of pictures below of student built frames to help illustrate how good class made frames can be.

There isn't a financial risk taking a good class. In reality it is the other way around. One might discover they don't have sustainable interest or ability (very useful to know before getting tooled up) but they will still leave with a professional quality custom frame. Herbie and I (or Dave in his) can make up any ability differences if necessary. Many of my students have already made a frame or two before coming here. All of them have expressed how much more they now understand and how different they will do things in the future. Do an internet search. Reading about other's experiences in class is the primary reason most students choose to come to Niles, Michigan.

All of my career, I’ve been extremely thankful I got my start from a British master who was willing to teach me well. As a result, I don’t mind showing any frame I’ve ever built and painted. As a real teacher (with university degrees in the field of education and government issued teaching certifications) I knew that the best way to begin my career was with the best training possible - even if I did have to go live in another country to get it. Looking back I feel even more strongly about this today. It is just a lot more convenient now even if you do live in Australia.

Here are pictures of frames Rob and Sam made in a 3 week class last year. Yes they were painted in class. Unfortunately the important details like having the wheels exactly center can’t be shown. Even crisp shorelines and nicely modified and filed lugs aren’t particularly visible in a quick I-phone snapshot.

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