Practice Joints…

[Dyon Taylor]

I will be attending UBI's framebuidling class this summer. In anticipation of going to UBI, I've been looking to do as much preparation as possible, and wanted to practice brazing some joints. I purchased some tubing and stamped lugs (OS Road) from Nova Cycles. I know that the stamped lugs are not great quality, but my plan was to practice mitering and brazing, and then cut them open for inspection. I've really had a tough time prepping the lugs to fit the tubes, spending hours and hours filing by hand and with a die grinder. I can't imagine that you guys spend this much time prepping lugs, and so I'm thinking it has to be the quality of the lugs, and maybe I just need to buy some investment cast lugs.

Any input/direction here would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[pruckelshaus]

What troubles have you had prepping lugs? Tubes don't fit inside? Gaps? The only real interior prep work I do to cast lugs is to make 'em shiny prior to brazing. Personally, I'd spend more time learning how to do a proper miter with a hacksaw and a couple of files...though you might have that down already?

[Dyon Taylor]

The miters are coming along, but the real trouble is getting the tubes to fit inside the lugs; initially they won't even fit at all. I'm trying to get the fit so the lug will slide down the tube under its own weight, allowing enough room for the silver to flow, which is taking hours of filing.

[EricKeller]

it doesn't have to slide by its own weight. You are going for a sliding fit, you are describing a very loose fit. If you want to learn how to braze lugs, the place to start is with .058 thick of one size and whatever's cheapest .125 down. This will allow you to have a tight slip fit, and you can try brazing rings of the larger tubing onto the smaller tubing

[Eric Estlund]

I'm going to suggest reading up on bike fit and design. Ron and the crew do a great job of teaching you the basics on how to physically build a bike- no need to struggle and pick up bad habits before you get there. I'm all for experimentation, but if you are signed up for a frame building class go ahead and show up with a fresh head.

The above is good advise practicing on slip fit tubing, and getting comfortable filing.

[pruckelshaus]

Yeah, that'd be way too loose for silver brazing but would be OK for brass. It's Sunday morning, so I won't make any hooker jokes. At any rate, the fit you're looking for would require a firm grip on both lug and tube, with light to moderate force to slide them together. The lug certainly shouldn't fall off the tube when held upside-down, which it would with what you're doing.

And ++ to everything the Erics had to say, as they have leagues more experience than I do.

Pete

[Chris.T]

I agree with Mr.Estlund on the bike fit & design...
When I went to UBI the course was excellent for where I was at. BUT I went there thinking I was going to build a hardtail mountain bike, I got there, read some stuff about CX ('cross is almost non-existant in New Zealand) and thought because I already had a MTB and everything else (except a cross bike) that I'd build a 'cross bike... It turns out that i knew nothing about the geometry to use and spent a lot of time messing around because of that.

Even though I ended up with a perfectly rideable bike I would have been better off asking more questions relating to the actual frame building and if I knew more about geometry at the time, perhaps I would have made a bike that rode a little better.

[Doug Fattic]

As a teacher of one of the schools you didn’t choose ☺, I’d suggest the same thing Eric wrote. I find that it is easier for me to teach a student to braze when he hasn’t already picked up bad habits trying to do things on his own (which is often the case). Once I have explained the principles of brazing and given some demonstrations, a person can start doing things the right way right from the start.

I think you would also be wise to figure out what your bicycle position is before you go and have some understanding of how that translates into the frame design that fits you. Students of mine that have also gone to UBI have indicated this is one of the things I do a bit differently. The more information of this kind you can take with you, the more likely you will be able interact with your teachers (who are good by the way) to get the best results.

A lug vise is one of your best friends when it comes to prepping lugs. If you have a good one you can stick it into the lug and tighten it up hard and it will expand the stamped lug to the right size. You can also hold the lug with that vise and use a grinding stone a little smaller than your hole opening. This takes a smooth motion where you are incrementally changing where your stone is touching so you take out an even amount all around. It is possible to do that holding it in your hand but you better be wearing gloves because if your grinder catches, it might tear the lug out of your hand.

And while I’m passing out free advice for getting the most out of class, you will be amazed how fast time goes and how much there is to learn. It is beyond what the average mind can remember. My suggestion is to take as many notes and pictures as possible right when things are happening. Later in the evening you can reorganize them to be more readable. This not only keeps a permanent record of what you did but also reinforces it in your head. You will find this invaluable later on. Almost every average to poor student thinks they will remember all those details but they don’t. I know because I’ll ask them the next day to explain particulars from the day before and things are forgotten. And they don’t remember more after a few weeks or months go by either.

[dbohemian]

And while I’m passing out free advice for getting the most out of class, you will be amazed how fast time goes and how much there is to learn. It is beyond what the average mind can remember. My suggestion is to take as many notes and pictures as possible right when things are happening. Later in the evening you can reorganize them to be more readable. This not only keeps a permanent record of what you did but also reinforces it in your head. You will find this invaluable later on. Almost every average to poor student thinks they will remember all those details but they don’t. I know because I’ll ask them the next day to explain particulars from the day before and things are forgotten. And they don’t remember more after a few weeks or months go by either.

This is very true! Mostly, I just don't think people learn all that well being deluged with information like we have too. It would be better to space it out and reinforce the skillsets. But alas we don't have months or years so Doug's advice is golden.

I will also add that I believe the most intensive part to be design, fitting and handling dynamics. Students don't often consider that part but we have the least amount of time to talk about it and its the most difficult. As Doug knows, everyone concentrates on brazing but its basically the least of what we do.

[Dyon Taylor]

Thanks so much for all of your input. What you all saw in my initial post was the bigger question that I didn’t ask, i.e., how do I get the most out of my framebuilding class? This is the great thing about VS. You guys have given some great advice, and I will take it to heart and follow it.

[jclay]

Every craft you are involved with will help you. As mentioned in my PM, I think that if you have had enough oxy/fuel torch instruction to be safe then the more practice ahead of time the better. It's not years of a bad golf swing that you'll need to correct, it's not nearly so subtle, you won't cast deleterious kinesthetic memory in your brazing limbs; you will learn the feel and look of things, you will learn what doesn't work, and the more the better. Then, you'll be more apt to "get" and apply the finer points that a truly skilled instructor can impart at those moments when you are ready.

When I started my 14 months in full time welding school long ago, none of us "got it" just because our instructor demonstrated it; not unless the "got it" bar is awfully low. It's a combination of practice, the feel and judgment that comes from that, and if you're really lucky you'll be around an instructor that is not only very good him/herself, but more importantly can figure out what to tell you, to help you improve.

Edit: I do recommend getting a vocational ed instructional book on gas welding & brazing. That will have the various drills used to teach motion and control laid out; torch/tip position, distance to work piece, push the puddle w/o filler rod (yes, start without rod), lay a flat bead, etc. A modest amount of local instruction, which would be part of learning enough to "safely operate the equipment" in my previous comment, coupled with performing a book's exercises and watching demonstration videos (internet) I believe will work well for crafty types. That sort of practice ahead of time can prepare one to increase the benefit of future instruction on finer points.

BTW: before lugs, try slipping rings of a larger tubing size slipped over a smaller stick of tubing; 1/4 inch wide or so, spaced out on a stick of about a foot long. Alex Wetmore has the bicycle tubing sizes that work on his blog. Excellent, time efficient, inexpensive way to practice flowing filler through the annulus - after the more rudimentary drills.

Summary: I don't suggest "winging it on your own". I suggest that between some local instruction on the basics (proper operation and basic knowledge of what you're dealing with and lots of working drills) and continuing to follow a primer's relevant drills at home (votech textbook, videos), then I think that continuing on your own is a sound way to learn. If uncomfortable, unsure or easily discouraged then I'd agree that waiting is the better choice.

[Doug Fattic]

It’s about keeping from getting discouraged

This question of how much self-practice one should do before class often comes up on various forums. Each person has different abilities so there is no one-way best option that fits everyone. Everybody has a different method that works best for them to learn a skill like brazing. But let me explain why I find starting a student with a fresh slate works better for the majority than to wing it on there own at first (to try and get the hang of it) before they have had proper personal instruction.

Good brazing requires more skill than then it appears. Because it is surprisingly difficult, it is also easy when starting out to get discouraged and wonder if one has what it takes. One of my primary jobs as a framebuilding class teacher is to keep a student’s emotions on an even keel. Learning to braze and the finickyness of getting everything else right when making a frame puts some students at their emotional limit. As I’ve often said when explaining talent before, not everyone can sing on tune nor do a 25mph time trial no matter how much they practice or train. Making a mess of things when starting out (the most realistic option) can create self-doubt that an experienced teacher then has to compensate for when showing him the ropes. Part of good instruction is understanding the psychology of the student and adjusting his methods to keep him feeling positive about what he is doing. It is more than just explaining the proper mechanics of motion. That is why I start with the easiest possible practices and watch for competency before going on to something more difficult. In fact before they ever touch a torch we go over beginner tendencies and how to avoid them. My brazing chapter in my class manual is 13 pages long. To choose one of many possible examples, most beginners can’t work their hands independent of each other when starting to braze. I coach them to always hold the filler rod close to the work while heating up the joint. Most drop their right hand down and when things get to the right temperature they now bring their left hand (if they are right handed) in from outer space to try and put the brazing rod in the right position. Meanwhile the joint is over cooked.

With proper instruction and reasonable talent, it doesn’t take that long to learn how to braze. I teach a 3-day class for those that will never be able to afford either the time or money for a longer class. Most students at the end of those 3 days can braze a lug with complete silver penetration throughout without overheating it and their shorelines will be very crisp. Of course I’m standing right next to them to bump their torch out of the way if they got concentrating on the filler rod hand too much. In addition they will have laid down a reasonable brass fillet that doesn’t require so much finish filing. It is also true that some students with limited talent will still be struggling at the end of a 2-week class. However nobody to my knowledge has left class with an improperly brazed frame although occasionally they have needed help from Herbie or me.

So from my experience teaching framebuilding classes for 35 years and having had hundreds of students make a frame under my instruction, I find for the majority of students it is better to come to class without prior trial and error self (and/or reading) instruction. Some of the toughest teaching I’ve had to do is with someone that tried to figure things out on his or her own before class. There are always exceptions to these general rules and some aren’t bothered at all by their mistakes so they would be the candidates for going it alone first. Students almost always come with mile-high enthusiasm. It is my job as a teacher to manage that enthusiasm properly when they start. It doesn’t take that much to plunge it into darkness when they begin melting filler rod with fire. That is why I don’t start brazing instruction on the first day so they can get some positive experiences working with their hands before it gets tougher.

[timto]

I'm also of the opinion to not sweat pre practice. I went to Doug's class a few years ago - and after the first day Doug said to me 'you don't use tools much do you?' ha ha ha.
I'm not uncoordinated but also it was true - I didn't know how to hold tools with confidence let alone how to turn on an OA torch, light it properly, braze and shut the thing off correctly!. My job was to be a good capable student, I left the teaching part to Doug.

The class gave me confidence to set up a shop at home with hand tools (files, hacksaw, vice) and rudimentary jigs (hand made), an OA kit, and i've done 6 bikes. Am looking to setup a shop again to build more.

So yeah - I had no build up experience and it worked out fine for me. My instructors (Doug and his helper at the time was our own Jason Musgrave) were great!

It’s about keeping from getting discouraged

This question of how much self-practice one should do before class often comes up on various forums. Each person has different abilities so there is no one-way best option that fits everyone. Everybody has a different method that works best for them to learn a skill like brazing. But let me explain why I find starting a student with a fresh slate works better for the majority than to wing it on there own at first (to try and get the hang of it) before they have had proper personal instruction.

Good brazing requires more skill than then it appears. Because it is surprisingly difficult, it is also easy when starting out to get discouraged and wonder if one has what it takes. One of my primary jobs as a framebuilding class teacher is to keep a student’s emotions on an even keel. Learning to braze and the finickyness of getting everything else right when making a frame puts some students at their emotional limit. As I’ve often said when explaining talent before, not everyone can sing on tune nor do a 25mph time trial no matter how much they practice or train. Making a mess of things when starting out (the most realistic option) can create self-doubt that an experienced teacher then has to compensate for when showing him the ropes. Part of good instruction is understanding the psychology of the student and adjusting his methods to keep him feeling positive about what he is doing. It is more than just explaining the proper mechanics of motion. That is why I start with the easiest possible practices and watch for competency before going on to something more difficult. In fact before they ever touch a torch we go over beginner tendencies and how to avoid them. My brazing chapter in my class manual is 13 pages long. To choose one of many possible examples, most beginners can’t work their hands independent of each other when starting to braze. I coach them to always hold the filler rod close to the work while heating up the joint. Most drop their right hand down and when things get to the right temperature they now bring their left hand (if they are right handed) in from outer space to try and put the brazing rod in the right position. Meanwhile the joint is over cooked.

With proper instruction and reasonable talent, it doesn’t take that long to learn how to braze. I teach a 3-day class for those that will never be able to afford either the time or money for a longer class. Most students at the end of those 3 days can braze a lug with complete silver penetration throughout without overheating it and their shorelines will be very crisp. Of course I’m standing right next to them to bump their torch out of the way if they got concentrating on the filler rod hand too much. In addition they will have laid down a reasonable brass fillet that doesn’t require so much finish filing. It is also true that some students with limited talent will still be struggling at the end of a 2-week class. However nobody to my knowledge has left class with an improperly brazed frame although occasionally they have needed help from Herbie or me.

So from my experience teaching framebuilding classes for 35 years and having had hundreds of students make a frame under my instruction, I find for the majority of students it is better to come to class without prior trial and error self (and/or reading) instruction. Some of the toughest teaching I’ve had to do is with someone that tried to figure things out on his or her own before class. There are always exceptions to these general rules and some aren’t bothered at all by their mistakes so they would be the candidates for going it alone first. Students almost always come with mile-high enthusiasm. It is my job as a teacher to manage that enthusiasm properly when they start. It doesn’t take that much to plunge it into darkness when they begin melting filler rod with fire. That is why I don’t start brazing instruction on the first day so they can get some positive experiences working with their hands before it gets tougher.

[Doug Fattic]

Tim, you would find my classes have changed a lot since you were there. They don’t change a lot every time but we always ask ourselves what can be improved and little by little they do. Jason was a victim of needing health insurance for his family so he couldn’t continue his dream of being a framebuilder. Herbie has been superb help to me in classes for a long time.

One of the advantages of having a couple of instructors for 3 people is that the frustration that comes trying to make hands behave is distributed among the voices trying to correct them. One of my students observed that I kept saying the same things (because I needed to correct the same things) but in different ways. And it is important to try and throw as much humor into the situation as possible. Adding a different voice varies those same instructions even more. This keeps the frustration down which improves the learning climate. Another advantage of having more than one in a class is seeing someone else learn. It is easier to understand what the problems are and the corrections necessary when watching another person. There is often too much going on and it is easy to be nervous at first - which can fog the process.

What happens when someone finally “gets it” is that some parts of the process are in muscle memory so it doesn’t require any conscience effort to move them the way they should. One can control their hands automatically in response what’s going on at the joint. It’s like driving a car and one doesn’t have to think about what arm and leg movements are necessary to stop at a red light or pass another car. The reason that some actions have to be in memory when brazing is that the left and right hand motions have to be independent of each other but in coordination to provide proper heat control with the addition of the right amount of filler a just the right time. My observations of those that have tried to learn on their own is that they often develop bad “habits” (muscle memory motions) that have to be broken so they can become more efficient. I don’t find students that have gone the trial and error learning route to be more advanced at the end of class than those that haven’t held a torch at all. And sometimes they require more time to get on the right path. That is why I don’t recommend prior torch experimentation. On the other hand if someone is really keen on trying things out before hand I don’t have any objections either. Go for it. A good teacher should be able to take someone from where ever they are and improve what they can do. Just don't expect that prior experience to be a big advantage.

[Andrew R Stewart]

I am one of those "studients" that came to Doug's class with years of self taught habits. I suspect Doug cringed many times watching me flick the torch as I did. But I had a different reason to attend his class then most of his studients. Mine was not to learn how to build, or disgn, a frame but to have an experienced eye oversee my efforts. And to practice my skills in a very concentrated setting.

Doug and I talked about this issue, how much preclass practice should one have? We still dissagree but as has been said before "there's more then one way to build a frame". I've watched a few pros go at things with a torch over the years and all had a different way of handling the torch and rod. How large is the flame, how quick is it's movement, how to apply the rod, and more. Granted there was a range of similarity but the detail varied. Perhaps the greatest advantage to preeclass experience is learning the stuff to not do and becoming comfy with the power of the flame. Andy.