The Vaccine Thread

[jimcav]

The major limitation in all 3 of the studies listed is the time period--DELTA was not the dominant variant in any of those studies. So far, data that DOES cover the periods and locations where DELTA is dominant is showing vaccination still affords far greater protection against infection, and more importantly is the greater protection against serious illness. I've not seen anything specifically breaking down current DELTA cases with respect to prior infection with a different, earlier variant. That may emerge, but it isn't hard to find studies looking at Delta variant.
There is starting to be pre-publish studies:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....28.21261086v1
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....28.21261295v1

This small study shows protection is much better with prior infection plus vaccine (J&J) against Beta variants. I haven't seen the same data yet for Delta, but the % deaths of vaccinated vs unvaccinated suggests it will be a similar result. J&J may still be a key for countries with fewer resources. Larger cohorts would be better too, but the data are the data. And more data will emerge.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....24.21261037v1

[beeatnik]

The major limitation in all 3 of the studies listed is the time period--DELTA was not the dominant variant in any of those studies. So far, data that DOES cover the periods and locations where DELTA is dominant is showing vaccination still affords far greater protection against infection, and more importantly is the greater protection against serious illness. I've not seen anything specifically breaking down current DELTA cases with respect to prior infection with a different, earlier variant. That may emerge, but it isn't hard to find studies looking at Delta variant.
There is starting to be pre-publish studies:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....28.21261086v1
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....28.21261295v1

You can also apply that logic to vaccine breakthrough infections. UK Technical Briefing is likely the most authoritative data on the subject. Natural immunity is still superior to vaccination against Delta according to their numbers.

Of the 263 participants with a PCR positive sample since April 2021 in the SIREN cohort overall, 221 (84%) occurred 14 days or more following their second vaccine dose. Please note that historical infections and reinfections have increased since the last Technical Briefing due to improvements in data linkage.

Of the SIREN cohort, 9,813 (31%) had evidence of prior infection (previous PCR positive or antibody positive) at enrollment. This number has increased during follow-up as participants move from the negative to positive cohort after a primary infection. Up to the 11 July 2021, there were 301 potential reinfections (blue line) identified in England (Figure 13). This is provisional data as potential reinfection cases flagged are undergoing further investigation, and some may subsequently be excluded. Reinfections in the SIREN cohort have been increasing since June 2021 (20 cases in June and 24 cases in July), after low levels in April 2021 (3 cases) and May 2021 (4 cases). Of the 51 potential reinfection events since April 2021, 3 were at least 21 days after the 1st vaccine dose and 42 (82%)were at least 14 days after the 2nd vaccine dose.

[jimcav]

I'm not sure what you mean by "that logic" The SIREN data in bold you are citing isn't likely to reflect DELTA. UK had only 75k cases identified of DELTA total on 16 JUN (up from 42k the week prior), so having cases from April is not going to be relevant to DELTA. But post the link so those interested can see what the data actually show.
What I am interested in is not just the % of infection with Delta amongst the vaccinated vs previously infected, but the severity of illness.

I'm not sure what point you are making, but the data I've looked at shows the vaccine results in lower illness and less transmission compared to those who aren't vaccinated. I'm not finding data showing prior infection with early COVID is now resulting in even less illness and less transmission than those vaccinated.

[ctak]

Right, so freedom of speech (which I'll assume most people here would support) is great...until it's a different opinion, then it's either stupid or charity on behalf of the mods?

I expect healthy discussion. I don't expect, nor support, the majority of you all attacking and labeling people, marginalizing them and their opinions the very second anyone steps out of line. The sense of entitlement, and ignorance of said entitlement, is hilarious. You guys are the reason why people dislike cyclists and have a poor view of them as arrogant and elitist. Cyclists like myself have to constantly defend ourselves because of a few fools.

You exemplify exactly my point- a mindset of unwavering intolerance bordering on straight up fascism towards anything "other" than an extreme liberal stance.

Finally- Ripped to shreds? Lol. Passive aggressive much? How about you make a coherent counter argument? I fully invite you to do the ripping, hoss.

Fair points. I'm relatively new to this forum and am continually shocked at how triggered the pro-vaccine crowd has become. I wonder how many of them have looked at the 6-month Pfizer study that was recently published.
Is it possible that in 2 short years big pharma has evolved from "evil empire" to "holy savior"?

[ctak]

The issue here is in order to get 'natural immunity' , you first need to get infected. Previously, for the 893K Israeli who were infected and recovered, 6,516 did not and died. (roughly 0.72%).
So instead of vaccinating 5,193,000 Israeli, we decided to have a giant COVID party. This results in an additional 37,386 deaths. So the question is not whether natural immunity or vaccinated immunity is better, it is by vaccinating the people before they get COVID, do you prevent many unneccessary deaths?

In finance we call this a survivorship bias and it skews the results.

So the right question is of the 3000 vaccinated people who caught covid, did 21 die or less ? Of the 4,600 unvaccinated patients who caught COVID at the same time, did 33 die less or more? That's the ratio to compare.

We'll never know who has/had natural immunity as many were sick before tests became available and/or asymptomatic and never tested. As far as I can tell, Pfizer didn't routinely test participants (or publish the data) in either group (placebo or vaccinated). This neurotoxicologist (Ph.D, Duke) brings up some solid points re: the shortcomings of the Pfizer 6-month data recently published.

[Saab2000]

Fair points. I'm relatively new to this forum and am continually shocked at how triggered the pro-vaccine crowd has become. I wonder how many of them have looked at the 6-month Pfizer study that was recently published.
Is it possible that in 2 short years big pharma has evolved from "evil empire" to "holy savior"?

Do you have a link to this study?

[bigbill]

Fair points. I'm relatively new to this forum and am continually shocked at how triggered the pro-vaccine crowd has become. I wonder how many of them have looked at the 6-month Pfizer study that was recently published.
Is it possible that in 2 short years big pharma has evolved from "evil empire" to "holy savior"?

We all like lively discussion and I'm far from being liberal in many areas, but I am pro-vaccine. Here is the news story about Pfizer's six month efficacy. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/28/pfiz...ix-months.html I had the Moderna, but Pfizer, even at 84% after six months is still better than not being vaccinated. These vaccinations have been in use on a wide scale for about seven months, as more data is gathered there will be adjustments, it's science and it evolves. IMO, too many people are grasping at any perceived weakness in the vaccines as a rationalization for not receiving one.

I was hospitalized last week with an acute appendicitis and I was thankful that I had received the vaccine in April to give me an added level of protection from the all the coughing folks in the ER.

[Chik]

too many people are grasping at any perceived weakness in the vaccines as a rationalization for not receiving one.

To paraphrase, they are saying that one should not be inoculated because the available vaccines are not perfect.

By and large, there are two types of people who hold/express that view: those that profit from expressing that view on various platforms and those that won't enjoy any financial gain.

One might take the view that the former are enterprising.

What to say about the latter? That's a rhetorical question.

[Octave]

Fair points. I'm relatively new to this forum and am continually shocked at how triggered the pro-vaccine crowd has become. I wonder how many of them have looked at the 6-month Pfizer study that was recently published.

Curious - what exactly are you insinuating about the 6-month Pfizer study? I've read it and am less than stunned by anything in there. Care to expand?

Do you have a link to this study?

That'd be this one: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....28.21261159v1

[ctak]

The YT link above delves into the results in detail... I recommend watching it if you have the time. Generally, I was pretty disappointed by the lack of meaningful data compared with similar European studies.

[ctak]

We all like lively discussion and I'm far from being liberal in many areas, but I am pro-vaccine. Here is the news story about Pfizer's six month efficacy. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/28/pfiz...ix-months.html I had the Moderna, but Pfizer, even at 84% after six months is still better than not being vaccinated. These vaccinations have been in use on a wide scale for about seven months, as more data is gathered there will be adjustments, it's science and it evolves. IMO, too many people are grasping at any perceived weakness in the vaccines as a rationalization for not receiving one.

I was hospitalized last week with an acute appendicitis and I was thankful that I had received the vaccine in April to give me an added level of protection from the all the coughing folks in the ER.

I don't understand how anyone can trust Pfizer's clinical trial data. They have an awful track record of lying to the public.

Looks to me that the video is produced by a group selling investment strategies based on a particular view of future events? Is that correct?

"Pfizer has faced thousands of lawsuits filed for medical injuries caused by some of its most popular drugs. It has also set a record for the largest fine paid for a health care fraud lawsuit filed by the U.S. Department of Justice. Pfizer paid $2.3 billion in fines, penalties, and settlement for illegal marketing claims."

Source Seeger Weiss LLP: https://www.drugdangers.com/manufacturers/pfizer/

[bigbill]

[QUOTE=Chik;1055890]To paraphrase, they are saying that one should not be inoculated because the available vaccines are not perfect.QUOTE]

Not really, the folks who don't want the vaccine don't want to be inoculated and are looking for reasons to validate their stance. The anti-vaxx folks are necessarily against the vaccine being given, it's just that they don't want one. I've lost my sympathy for folks like that, but I think they've made the emotional investment by loudly proclaiming their opposition to the vaccine and now they're a victim of their own pride. They can't get the vaccine without losing face. The only repentant people are those who refused the vaccine and are now hospitalized and heading for a ventilator. A friend who is a Anesthesiologist in NV has to tell people that it's too late for the vaccine as she prepares them for the ventilator that may or may not save their lives.

[zetroc]

Please get vaccinated. If not for yourself, do it for other people.

[beeatnik]

please get vaccinated. Do it for yourself, and only yourself.

fify

[beeatnik]

A friend who is a Anesthesiologist in NV has to tell people that it's too late for the vaccine as she prepares them for the ventilator that may or may not save their lives.

Can you ask your friend if he has had more than two patients in his hospital express that regret?

And for those who take these anecdotes at face value: have you ever seen cancer patients smoking outside oncology offices?

[j44ke]

I don't understand how anyone can trust Pfizer's clinical trial data. They have an awful track record of lying to the public.



"Pfizer has faced thousands of lawsuits filed for medical injuries caused by some of its most popular drugs. It has also set a record for the largest fine paid for a health care fraud lawsuit filed by the U.S. Department of Justice. Pfizer paid $2.3 billion in fines, penalties, and settlement for illegal marketing claims."

Source Seeger Weiss LLP: https://www.drugdangers.com/manufacturers/pfizer/

I retracted/deleted my question because it struck me as particularly meaningless. Everyone on YouTube is selling something.

[zetroc]

fify

Please aspire to a lower level of selfishness.

[ctak]

I retracted/deleted my question because it struck me as particularly meaningless. Everyone on YouTube is selling something.

Agreed!

[beeatnik]

Please aspire to a lower level of selfishness.

That's exactly the correct characterization. I believe Octave's assessment that vaccination can lower transmission and possibly limit variants of concern. I don't believe that the vaccinated are at risk from the unvaccinated; otherwise, they would be at high or higher risk from the vaccinated, who where I live are the vast majority. So, if more people under 50, as those over 70, follow a personal risk calculus and get vaccinated because they worry about severe outcomes (as unlikely as they may be) then we can move forward to accepting endemicity.

[zetroc]

That's exactly the correct characterization. I believe Octave's assessment that vaccination can lower transmission and possibly limit variants of concern. I don't believe that the vaccinated are at risk from the unvaccinated; otherwise, they would be at high or higher risk from the vaccinated, who where I live are the vast majority. So, if more people under 50, as those over 70, follow a personal risk calculus and get vaccinated because they worry about severe outcomes (as unlikely as they may be) then we can move forward to accepting endemicity.

I know four people who are immunocompromised and cannot get vaccinated. They're living very solitary lives right now because vaccination rates aren't high enough for them to be able to move about and live their lives safely. Please get vaccinated and encourage others to do the same.